There's no such thing as Filipino Stickfighting!

Kali, based on the Kalibunton or Kalis stresses the protections skills of the blade.
The use of the stick, in the nothern regions represented the transfomation of the art after the colonization by the Spanish. It was the battle at Mactan, in the Southern regions that prompted the Spanish to outlaw the carrying of the blade. From Mindinao, and other such regions we see the art in it's true form. No matter what you do, can I stop you. The higher elements being the empty hands to the blade. See what we mean at a special forces, program in Maryland call Sifu John Springer 410 549 6072 to attend Jan. 22, 2000. Remember technique means nothing, the more you know, the more your likely to be confused. Once the confusion is gone, rely on the flow and the sensitivity to protect yourself firs, neutralize or control your opponent, and finish. Do not fight. See you soon. Regards to all for a Happy New Year.

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P. Greg Alland, Master Kali Silat, SinaTirsiaWali
 
B

BRAM

Joined
Mar 9, 1999
Messages
1,028
I assume that this is semantics. stickfighting as is recognised by the general public as FILIPINO stick work does reflect the intrepretation of western blade work introduced into the region. As for Kali( arnis, Eskrima WHATVERE filipino term or dialect name one comres up with) being only the art of the blade, well thats up for grabs. No matter what martial arts style mythos one cares to propigate, or believe the use of spears and sticks run parallel to that of blade work. Yes I do understand that AFTER "steel" becomes the poredominate material for weapoin choice that the main conceptual uasge is the blade..but to say there is no such thing as "stickfighting" is a VERY big jump. The Egyptians, the Babylonians, the greeks and even the eastern cultures use/used sticks...especially for fighting. Since the Filipino history is constantly rewritten by ORAL tradition,any version as TOLD, TAUGHT or handed down by the so called elders, or tribes is suspect.
Its as good as the chinese versions of history as told by various Gung-fu schools/styles. It flies in the face or archelogical proof...
Yes.. I do agree that the ultimate expression of the arts as we know them are expressed by the use of the blade.
Since the Spanish and others were there in force for over 400 years it taints any discussion as to what is the purity or original thrust of the arts of the area..
Statements of we were never conquered, we had no foriegn influence, we maintained our purity go against all common sense and historical perspective of the area.
Glad you are teaching the blade to people. Yes they need to see that stickfighting as they know it is a corruption of the art of the blade,,but it is one that has evolved into a fighting art of its owmn which can trace itself back as well
have a great day and a great seminar!!!!
Your thread statement was a bit misleading..LOL!
 
Lets talk about "range" for a min. Arnis will stickfight from across the room aka
lacoste,presas, ect. Kali will use the footwork, sinawali, and the blade. You can use the stick the practice some disarm, but your solo practice should be with the real deal. except the blade as it is an extension of your life.
In silat we say jurus
in boxing we say punches
in kali we say sinawali.
Thanks,
Paul
 
Paul,

"Arnis", "kali" and "escrima" are all just names ... nothing more. The term used is not dictated by the content of the art, nor does it dictate the art's content.

Prime example: Leo T. Gaje, who was one of Mr. Alland's guros, used to call his art (Pekiti-tirsia) "kali". Then switched to "arnis" back in the late 70's/early 80's time frame, then switched back to "kali". He started refering to it as "arnis" because of the other FMA groups he was associating with at the time.

He didn't change his art, but the name went from "kali" to "arnis" and back to "kali". I think that says a lot about the importance (or lack thereof) of the term used. It says that the one you use is a matter of personal preference.

Also, if you think that there's no footwork in stickfighting, then you are mistaken. Footwork is one of the elements that applies to stick, blade and empty hands. Body mechanics is another.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton.

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 01-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 01-03-2000).]
 
I must confess that I used to think of the stick only as a training tool to be used until one had enough skill to correctly wield a sword or when using a sword would be too dangerous. Based upon this misconception, I trained to use a stick EXACTLY as I would a sword. Now, with some training under someone who really understands how to use a stick, as well as a blade, I see the stick as a weapon in it's own right.

The stick and sword are both weapons, in some ways very much a like and in other ways, very dissimilar. Since they use common basic principles, but emphasize different elements, they are very complimentary. For example, a lot of people hit incorrectly with a stick because they don't understand the concept of edge orientation since it's not as obvious as it is with a blade. Edge orientation is still important for the stick however because it ensures the proper alignment for transfer of power. So my sword work improves my stick work because the sword emphasizes something the stick doesn't. A lot of people who train only with a sword lack power and end up waving the blade around in fancy dance. Why? Because while the blade is sharp, part of an effective cut or thrust is POWER. As an impact weapon, the stick forces you to learn to generate power because if you don't, you have NOTHING! My stick work improves my blade work because it emphasizes something the sword doesn't. So, (among other things) one teaches me how generate power, and the other teaches me how to transfer that power to my opponent.

They sound like a good team to me. Two sides of the same coin as it were. I train both, and will continue to do so.
biggrin.gif


Respectfully,

Dave Fulton







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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


 
nice post Dave...I have nothing to add.
cepting I wish I could afford the time and money to travel to all these seminars..LOL!
 
Thank you for the compliment Bram! I'm with you on the seminars too. I wish I had the time & money as there are a few people I'd like to check out.

Dave.
 
Dave, I completely agree with you. The stick doesn't only serve the blade. The concept of fighting with a stick is an art in its own right.

Jason
 
disregard.

[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
MasGuro: You said there is no such thing as Filipino Stick Fighting!.

You mention the Spanish Era and the battle of Mactan as a beginning that Arnis came to existence in Phils.

You mention Sifu John and seems you are advertising his Club.

Well, let me answer you one by one and I am going to say it again and again. Before the coming of spaniards in Philippines there is already a government or system in the Phils and have their own distinct arts and cultures. Philippines composed of many tribes or ethnic groups to name a few here starting from major tribes or regions they are the following:

1. Ilocanos - Northern Part of the Philippines that comprises, Cagayan, Ilocos Norte/Sur, La Union, Baguio, Abra, Kalinga etc. These regions speaks common language Ilocano but there are again smaller tribes. In Cagayan, they have the Ibanags, Itawes, Gadang dialects. In Baguio they have the Igorots (these group of people were never invaded by the spaniards nor the Japanese as well as the Americans - locally they are known as head hunters in early times, be it correct or wrong lets just put that way). In Kalinga, there are the Isneg or Kalingas, in Abra there are the Tinguians. In Ilocos Norte/Sur, La Union, they are pure Ilocanos. All of these groups have their own art and to tell you frankly Arnis is called Arnis in Ilocos Region and If you go to the Katagalugan (Tagalogs tribe-region) they called Arnis, In the visayas particularly Iloilo where the birth place of Presas called also Arnis. Arnis is not tagalog nor Ilocano nor Visaya Language but a way of the stick, I have seen some of my grand grand fathers and several old man in mynative town and they talk Arnis but never been mixed with bladed weapon.

Presas is from Central Philippines Visayan Islands that composed, Iloilo, Cebu, Bohol etc. My point here is Arnis was already played by the old folks before the coming of the Spaniards. Iskrima just came to existence when spain introduced their sword fighting and of course being a Filipino Ingenuity we learned their arts or incorporate their arts to our own but still the Arnis has its own way to be translated to the way of the Tabak, Kris or any blades. By the way Tabak means Itak also or in English Bolo.

Let us go to Mindanao on the fight of Mactan. Because some of the Visayas Datu or Chiftain tribes were convinced by Magellan, they heed to the purpose of Magellan to Invade Mactan if Lapulapu will not accept Christianity so fighting ensued. But I doubt if Lapulapu had killed Magellan by his "Kampilan" another term of a long bladed weapon. Perhaps Magellan was hit by a flying arrow and being stabbed nor chop by any of Lapulapu's man. On this history, Lapulapu uses his own art of blade, it might not be an arnis but another name in his locality. Also, for your info Lapulapu is not a muslim nor a moro or Christian but a pure native in that island, if they have religion it might be native one but that is not the issue.

Formerly, the Moros are not from Mindanao but the main group are from Manila the place called "IntraMuros" this was named by the spaniards. Intra means enter, Muros a name they gave to the natives in that Walled City. I may say too it can be called city of the mu[o]ros. Fighting ensued in Intramuros with the help of the other residents because that is the seat of Gov't in Manila in the 14th century. With inferior arms, the Moros or Muros retreat to Southern part (Mindanao) to continue their fights against the colonizers and they did not surrender to the will of the Spaniards so they are in the south, that is why until now they are fighting, for they don't want to accept foreign cultures. This shows only that they have a distinct arts and culture being preserved. But from where are they originally, they are formerly from the Northern Philippines. So, they might have embedded their Kampilan, Kris nor bladed arts into arnis.

If I go on, I can make one text book, but I only show that "THERE IS SUCH THING AS FILIPINO STICK FIGHTING" that this stick fighting can be translated into bladed or any staff weapons like the other poster said.

By the way I was one time stumbled to Sifus web site and he is claiming to be Presas student also, and now you are saying there is no such thing as Filipino Stick Fighting. Are you saying you have now an original Stick Fighting arts being taught by Sifu? This is the problem, almost everybody want to lean from some one and later on they will make their own style, club and later own become business and claim they are the originator but they forget their master. In martial arts, even we are better then our Guro or Master in future we must give respect and always look back their arts that were handed to us. That is the old adage.

Thanks,

[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited 01-06-2000).]
 
There is no such thing as Filipino stickfighting in Combat. My teacher, Grand Master Nene Toral teaches Philippine Military Personnel, I assure you in combat there is no stick fighting. No say there is no such thing outside of combat is just not true. Every country, every art has some element of stick fighting, used to prove a point, with out death. One is only to be remined of the samuri that defeated his opponent using a stick, the opponent did not accept the defeat and insisted it be proven with a real blade. In combat the real blade proves the point. Combat is not stickfighting, it is killing. To say martial arts, in this country, we speak of sport, in the Philippines, my teacher calls it survival arts.

Martial, means military, it is the art of killing in some dictionaries. Stick fighting in the Filipino arts exists, in combat it does not, yet the practice with the stick is the training tool for the blade.

The art of Filipino Stickfighting begain to receive publicity and thus the Filipino arts extened their practice with the stick beyond most other arts. Yet anyone can claim Korean Stickfighting, or Thai Stickfighting.

I believe none have been developed like the Filipino Arts, and none were further developed then we see. Before, the Spanish few went into combat with sticks as the major weapon if any at all. I.e., used what they got, not the weapon of choice.

I practice with the stick and provide seminars to share the art as a blade, with a real element of danger to get the real value from the practice.

As for Sifu John Springer, he is helping me, since he saw the free videos from the CDrom, the Martial Arts explorer at my website http://www.KaliSilat.com the long download is worth the wait and shares the technology of the stick and the blade.

With respect I submit Filipinos may have used the stick to settle differences, but it was not considered combat, or the choice of weapons in combat, and certainly has no place in combat with today's technology.

I remain in the arts through the grace of God and the help of my teachers always.

And yes, the student does go beyond the skill of his teacher, we always give respect, because we learn from everyone.

Cheers, Greg MasGuru


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P. Greg Alland, Master Kali Silat, SinaTirsiaWali
 
Hmmm... A grand total of 2 posts on that Bladeforums UserName, and both of them presume to tell the rest of the world how wrong they are whilst shamelessly plugging for student business.

If I'm wrong, or I've misinterpreted these posts, I apologize in advance...but I think I smell internet troll.

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 01-07-2000).]
 
Razoredj! let me guess your a arnis student right?
Paulo
Click to expand...

Well...I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least a little biased in that direction.

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 01-08-2000).]
 
Arnis, Kali, Eskrima, "They are all the same", so says Grand Master Dionisio 'Juni' Canete, Esq. OK, I study the Filipino arts from an original rendering of Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr., whose genius led to the organized re-discovery of the Pekiti Tirsia System, following basic principles, this foundation is found in everys art. Yet to become one with the art, you become the practice you are doing, it becomes you, your characteristics, doing it your way. In so, the principles of study become the same. Today Pekiti Tirsia is grossley hidden from practice in it's origin, from the sytem of the 64 attacks, we examime many drills, from it's basic rendering of strikes, the Abecedario, the 4 Wall, the umbress, the five attacks, the break in/break out, the seven attacks and the clock system. All are nothing unless practiced.

From the system we get the combination of all strikes, the sinawali, in close quarter, I developed a concept of learing I call SinaTirsiaWali. All based on the original footwork, striking system and body mechanics for power. Taking these drills into consideration, until they are learned in both hands, thus the Sinawali of all technique, comes alive to it's practicioner, each individually.

In the foundation of this is Dekiti Tirsia Serradas, it's foundation from Grand Masters in the Tortal family, incorporated into a complete system developed by Grand Master Jerson 'Nene' Tortal, as a Survival art, the stick is not a combat weapon, but a tool, can it be used in training the Philippine Military, yes, it is a Military Weapon in today's Military, I think not. Philippine stick fighting is a sport, it does not exist as a combat art. Was it used in combat, yes, was it effective, yes, why does it have a place in the arts. For training purposes, all arts are the same, what is realized from them is the effect of the practice. Come and see why, practice is the real secret in these arts, and why so many are left behind. Pekiti Tirsia, is the place of Kali - Silat, just review of findings by the late Master Edgar Sulite, as to Pekiti Tirsia, from his book, "......it is from the stand point that you learn in close fighting, from there you will have confidence. It doesn't work the other way around though, 'if you practice long range you remain outside the essence of the fight and often have to run from the inclose activity', (my statement from ' to '.

Further examine his book and visit other valuable systems of practice, from Kali Illustrisimo, Modern Arnis, many others some developed in the 70's others from ancient times.

MasGuru



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P. Greg Alland, Master Kali Silat, SinaTirsiaWali
 
P.S. I started Arnis, in the arly 70's with Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr. and am the only student to the best of my knowledge that uses his original methods of training the senior students of the 70's and 80's and incorporate several drills from other systems as well.




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P. Greg Alland, Master Kali Silat, SinaTirsiaWali
 
i would like to add to what donna is saying about greg he is unselfish and has no ego or jealousy in his heart. if i could tell you what i know of his experience with many of his colleges (he has been training in kali since many of us never even heard of any kind of philippine fighting arts), he never have told me anything bad about them. and that is hard to do.

before anybody begin to jump on him for saying controversial things (and you knwo i am use to that) let me give you this witness, greg is one of the few people i know who teach it and research it from the heart, and he can back up and use any of his stuff, and he is not afraid to try it. greg remebember in baltimore you came to my place thanksgiving and we knife sparred? i respect that because no one ever agree before to do that. and i was a total stranger to him then too. not just that he invited me to guest a seminars he was doing in a knife show.

about pekiti tirsia, it is a tested system. the troops in negros (or is is cebu?) they use it for their style--not just one seminar, it is their style! the army does not choose a style just because of whatever. and it has not been influence by seminars here in the u.s. i think what greg is trying to say--and it is true what he says--maybe we use the stick, but the intention of the art is for the blade. and when it comes to true combat, life or death, the PILIPINO way is to use the blade. i have never heard my own grandfather or his friends talk about killing someone with a stick. i never read a newspaper about a guy defending himself or fighting with a stick. the people who want the sport love the stick, the one who want self defense or survival choose the blade.
 
Originally posted by Razoredj:
Well...I'd be lying if I said I wasn't at least a little biased in that direction.

Well let me tell you I am glad to see that all you arnis guy seem to keep an open mind NOT! I thought everyone in the forum is looking for knowledge but only if it is what you want to hear right. Keep those blinders on and I am sure you'll go nowhere in your training.

Instructor Bernard Tripi
North American Kali Silat Guild

Click to expand...
 
Donna wrote:

Hi Razor,
I met Mas Guro Alland at a seminar he was holding in CT and I invited him onto this forum. As he promised he came to visit and his first post was this thread, I am glad to have him on board sharing about his style and his experience as I am also glad to have the rest of you.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Donna. I stand corrected on that score. Apologies again to Mas Guro.

As for the following...

Well let me tell you I am glad to see that all you arnis guy seem to keep an open mind NOT! I thought everyone in the forum is looking for knowledge but only if it is what you want to hear right. Keep those blinders on and I am sure you'll go nowhere in your training. -- Instructor Bernard Tripi
Click to expand...

Thank you for those constructive comments. You are as articulate as you are insightful. I, for one, am grateful to have on hand individuals with your wisdom and patience. Truly, your words will help each and every one of us on the path towards personal enrichment.

Respectfully, if a bit wry,

Razor

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 01-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Razoredj (edited 01-09-2000).]
 
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