Thermometer?

Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
15
I'm going to try to harden 440c stainless steel with a torch, to do that I have to get the steel to between 1850 and 1950 degrees Fahrenheit and I need some kind of thermometer that will go that high and tell me when I'm at the right temp. Does anyone know a cheap thermometer that will help me accomplish this?
 
+1 from count.
You'll never get even enough heat with a torch. Thats not what they were designed to do.

Send it out.
 
I tend to go with the Count on this, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

If you want to give it a try, the cheapest way of measuring the sort of temperatures needed is with a type K thermocouple and a handheld readout.

The cheapest readout I know works well is the TM902C, for 5 or 6 bucks delivered from China and easily found on ebay. It reads in degC, so you'll need to convert if you think in degF, but the price is good.

The thermocouple itself is likely to be much more expensive than the readout. I buy mine locally (I'm in the UK), but something like a KHXL-14G-RSC-18 from Omega is good for forges. It's long enough and rigid enough to be able to poke it into the forge in the position you want, has a fast response due to the grounded junction and the sheath will withstand temperatures up into the welding range for Carbon steels. It will actually tolerate fairly short periods at up to 1368 degC/2495 degF, which is where type K maxes out.

http://www.omega.com/pptst/KHXL_NHXL.html

It works OK in a forge or muffle, because the idea behind the forge/muffle is to have a chamber at an even temperature throughout, so the thermocouple will be at the same temperature as the workpiece.

If you are using a torch, which gives localized heating, it is difficult to ensure the thermocouple has good enough contact to be accurately measuring the temperature of the steel.

However, if you heat the thermocouple and blade together and use your eye to ensure that the thermocouple is the same color as the blade, you'll get a pretty good measurement.

Color is hard to describe and is perceived differently by different people, but is actually a very good way of measuring temperature. Back in the day, there were instruments for measuring temperature that used an electrically-heated wire. The operator viewed the wire against the object being measured and adjusted the temperature of the wire. When it "disappeared" into the background, it was the same temperature as the background and the temperature of the wire could be read off the instrument.

Infra-Red thermometers can work well, but tend to be expensive once you want to measure high temperatures. They are also very sensitive to the emissivity of the object being measure. This is usually an unknown quantity until the true temperature of the object to be measured is known by some other method and the emissivity value in the IR instrument adjusted to get the IR temperature reading to show the true value.
 
You can't read the temperature of a blade at those temps with anything but a proper lab pyrometer. These are very expensive and have to be adjusted right to give a good reading.. The cheap IR jobs won't go that high and are not made for reading hot steel. A TC and PID reader will not work .

All that won't matter, because you can't HT 440C with a torch anyway.

It has to be done in a programmable HT oven while sealed in an oxygen excluding stainless steel pouch or in a gas shielded oven. After several controlled steps, the blade has to stay at exactly 1900-1925°F for thirty minutes. Then it is cooled between two thick aluminum plates. After it gets down to room temp, it goes in liquid nitrogen to finish the conversion of the austenite.

Welcome to Bladeforums. Filling out your profile will be helpful to you and to us.


Send your blade off to a HTer and have it professionally done.
 
I dunno if Chad got schooled here but I sure did.

Corey "synthesist" Gimbel
 
You could get it hot enough with an oxy acetylene torch, but, hot and even would be difficult. Like Stacy said, the big thing is at the temps needed for high chrome steels you are going to be ruining the steel if you don't have it protected from the oxygen. Stainless foil would burn up with a torch and you couldn't read the temp. Inert gas atmosphere is also out.

I will help you out with this. My holiday good deed for the forum. Contact me by PM or email and send it to me. I will harden it in my oven (in 309 foil), quench it with my plates, stick it in a dry ice acetone "slush" and temper it at 425f.

Then you need to either get some steel like 1084, get an oven or start sending out to a commercial HT.
 
Merry Christmas Santa Jim!! Good on you.

Take the offer Chad. It's your best option at this point.

Lots of great people here to help you out. Read, try, and read some more. Ask questions as you go. Start simple [which stainless is NOT!], and have some fun.

Have a safe holiday season!!
 
I went through this when I first got into knifemaking and had not yet bought a controlled heat treat oven and wanted to use 440C. Leave the edge and tip slightly thicker to accomodate the extra oxidation that will happen when heating with a torch. Use an oxy acetaline torch to get the high temperature required to do this. In a dark area or in the evening heat the knife until it is orange hot. Keep the flame moving and heat the entire blade enenly. Then either do an air quench or dip into oil. Back then I just used used motor oil. Then normalize in the oven. Your wife might have questions about this, but tell her it won't get the oven dirty. Set the temp to 400 and leave in oven for an hour, and then reduce the temp to 350 and repeat. This will give you a basic heat treat. Its a bit hit and miss, but I have a couple of knives that take an edge and hold an edge far better than others I have done in the heat treat oven. One major drawback will be the scale to remove. It will be hard to remove and quite deep, be prepared to work and it, and be care full not to overheat the blade while removing scale. I did this only a few times before I was convinced that I needed a proper HT oven with foil wrap to control the atmosphere.
 
I figured I'd share my failure with 440c
I have an Evenheat 22.5 and have had great luck with everything so far which includes 1084,5160,1095 and 52100.
I warped a few blades to start but have done about 30 total using Parks 50 for all ( I know its not idea for the 52100)

Well I decided to try some 440c two days ago.
I used AKS info and preheat 1500 hold 5min then ramp to 1900 hold 30 then plate quench.
Well even though I knew I should I didn't use foil.....FAIL!
Once cooled I hit it with a wire wheel on my buffer to remove some scale and then temper. That process has worked for the other steels for me so why not.
Once I double tempered the knife I went to the grinder .. I have been hitting blades with a quick 80grit then 120 to clean up, not with this.
The almost new 80 loaded up so I hit it with a new 50 same deal still black with some polished spots.
By the time I got back to shiny metal my HT was toast and the edge area was still pitted and black
Moral of the story use foil....

Sometimes you gotta try and fail to learn so not all is lost .... This was for a Kitchen knife as a Christmas present to my sister inlaw so no big deal I'm going to remake in 52100 .
 
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