Thin cuts better.

M

matthew rapaport

Joined
Jun 23, 1999
Messages
1,209
My first true custom is on its way. Its an integral from George Tichbourne. He has been kind enough to provide a picture which I have put up here: http://www.sonic.net/~quine/gifs/tichbourne4.jpg

It is a "true custom" in that it is one of a kind. The blade shape emerged out of my own idea of the ideal utility blade shape and size, in this case 4". George added the false back edge himself, I'll admit it does look really slick, though I think its effect on the knife's utility is somewhat mixed. The handle is one of George's from another knife.

What you can not see in the picture is that the spine is only 3/32" thick. I have a number of expensive and inexpensive utility knives in the 3" to 5" blade length range. With one exception, they are 1/8" thick at the spine. Most of the custom knife makers with whom I am familiar choose this width in a "small blade". Busse is an exception in going even thicker, but the only exception I have going thinner is a 5" long Mora2000 Survival knife ($26) that is only 1/16" thick!

The funny thing is that this little inexpensive knife (I could buy 5 of them for the cost of my next most inexpensive utility fixed blade) cuts wickedly, is quick in the hand, and even at 5" the 1/16" steel is still tough enough to take some pounding through wood to split kindling, and even some hammering (on the pommel) to use the point to dig channels in split wood (as in hollowing out a log). No, the Mora does not hold an edge as long as a Dozier, but for $26 bucks what would I expect? The real lesson though is that a somewhat thinner steel is still quite strong!

George and I talked about this for a while on the phone and by email. Since this was going to be a user at least sometimes, we agreed that 3/32" might be the best experimental compromise for his characteristic flat grind to the spine - just the way I like them.

I am very much looking forward to getting this knife and trying it out around the farm here for as long as I can. No, I won't see if it can dig rocks out of the ground, but it sure will be used to cut a lot of canvas, rope, hose, thin plastic, cardboard, prepare food, clean meat, debone chickens, filet fish, etc. If it performs to my expectations, I may have to revisit other elements of my collection and see if I can thin it out!

So what is it that makes going thinner than 1/8" so unpopular at the moment? Is it just the present fad?
 
Matthew -- I think it is just that many people equate solidity with quality. For instance, I love the weight of my CRKT KFF. That feels so good in my hand. I've gotten used to my Spyderco Goddard Ltwt, but it was hard at first to feel any trust for a knife that large and that light. I've read more than once that a lot of people sort of buy knives by the pound. So, the knife makers have been making them with thicker, heavier blades than is necessary.

I've come to the conclusion, as I look at my perhaps slightly wacky collection, that the knife that very likely to be the best self-defense tool is my Apache. It has a much thinner blade than any other of my large tactical folders. I know that thrusting has to be easier, and I believe that it can hold its own in slashing fairly well.

I think that you're headed in the right direction. Certainly George T isn't going to sell a knife that will jeapordize his reputation. I think that with titanium and G-10 and carbon fiber, we're all gradually accepting that lightweight knives can do all that the "solid" ones can, maybe more.

Good luck with that gorgeous knife!

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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
Thin is in
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The reason that thicker blades are so popular?
Easy.
"Bigger is better"
Not always right, but that is how lotsa folks look at any solution to a problem.
If 1/8 is good, 1/4 has got to be better
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Not puttin' anyone down, each size and style blade has its uses and roles, but I think alot of knives are overly thick, mailnly because that is what sells... now. In time that can change.
While camping I had to chop up garlic for the linguine and clam sauce (yum) My Livesay Marshall was way too thick for that, so I used my SAK. But then again the Marshall was way better for stakes and marshmallow sticks.
Just my 2¢
Ebbtide out.
 
matthew and bugs,

matthew - I do not have a knife by George, I wish I did....someday when my current knives wear out. I am sure you will be pleased. Congrats!

bugs - I agree with you, the Apache is a nice lightweight knife. I love Ti and Al handles that can be had these days.

I think you have it right matthew, the current rage is for large, sturdy, heavy bladed, tactical knives. None of the above (except sturdy) are attactive to me. The concept of self-defense with a knife is so "last ditch" to me that I plan for it like I plan for crossing the street in my small town...not at all.

On the other hand, I want a knife that will perform. Something that will cut stuff easily, be low maintenance, retain its' edge and open with one hand. Combine these qualities with lightweight and a thin blade...and you really start to become limited in selection.

I don't mind frame locks, but would prefer a frame lock. Sometimes you have to compromise.

Someday...a maker that will fill my needs will show. I know one now but can't afford him...yet.
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Enjoy your knife matthew!


Steve-O
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve-O:
Something that will cut stuff easily, be low maintenance, retain its' edge and open with one hand. Combine these qualities with lightweight and a thin blade...and you really start to become limited in selection.

I don't mind frame locks, but would prefer a frame lock. </font>
Click to expand...

One of the reasons the Sebenza performs so well is the blade geometry. That deep hollow grind makes a working edge that is very thin very far up.

So what have the Sebenzanistas gotten Chris Reeve to do? Make a thicker heavy flat grind version of course!
 
I agree that thin is the way to go for a pocket knife. It's amazing how so many knives these days in the 3" to 5" blade range have the geometry of an axe.

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Cerulean

"The hairy-armed person who figured out how to put an edge on a suitable rock made it possible for us to be recognizably human in the first place." - J.K.M.
 
Given the same steel, heat treatment, same type of grind, etc. I would definitely agree that the thinner blade is a more efficient "cutter"/"slicer".
As noted, it seems that the current trend is toward the thicker blade. I think the assumption is that in a "tactical" situation, or the "if you could depend on only one knife" situation, one would need the added strength a thicker blade offers. I can't comment on these situations because I have never been in them.

With that said, for me, I can give up the added toughness a thick blade can offer because I only use my knives for making the cleanest possible cut. To me, the beauty in using a knife is to separate matter with the least amount of damage to both pieces. As for a defensive situation, for me to pull my folder, EVERYTHING would have to go wrong first, and to be honest, I would not know how to use it except to try and intimidate.

Thin blades definitely cut better.

Aloha

[This message has been edited by BigHonu (edited 06-13-2001).]
 
Sorry folks, it is edge geometry that makes the biggest difference in cutting efficiency. The best cutting knife I have experienced is almost .25" thick at the spine and only 1" wide. But it has an almost zero width edge bevel.

View


The thicker blade will create more friction when cutting through hard materials like wood, but the edge geometry is what really determines if the knife will cut well.
 
I have a few knives with unusually thin blades and they do cut exceptionally well. I reserve them for lighter use because I don't know how much a blade that thin can take, but they do cut damn good!

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"Is not giving a need? Is not receiving mercy?" - Thus Spoke Zarathustra
"Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about." - Lazarus Long
"Knowledge is not made for understanding; it is made for cutting." - Michel Foucault
 
Thin Vrs. Thick?

It depends on what you are cutting. A nice thin machete is extremely effective on soft vegetation, but try to take a tree down with one. The beauty of knives is that we have a great variety available and we can choose to carry whatever combination best meets our needs.

Having said that, I agree with Steve that edge geometry has a much bigger impact on sharpness than blade thickness. Ideally you want the edge bevel to start as close to the spine as possible, and you want the final edge to be convex/appleseed.

N2S

 
One of the reason that thin knives tend to cut better is that it is easier to get good edge geometry.

Why do so many makers use thicker blades?

1. Stock availability. It may be easier to get 1/8" stock.

2. Customer Use/Abuse. Busse Combat uses 1/4" stock for all of their knives because of the way they expect their customers to use the knives and their warranty even though they will readily admit that thinner stock on some of their knives would increase Slicing performance.

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AKTI Member No. A000370
 
I've been working a lot with a 1/16" blade and I'm finding that its plenty tough. It does require sharpening more often, but that is due to both a combination of steel (it's an inexpensive knife), and edge geometry. On the other hand, it is trivial to sharpen on just about anything. In going thin, especially if you went this way in a wilderness situation, you are comitting yourself to having some other chopping or sawing tool under normal circumstances. Otherwise, and certainly in and around my rural domestic environment, a 3/32" blade is going to be more than tough enough to get any job done that it is called upon to do.

Incidentally, George was concerned that the 3/32 through the handle would not be stiff enough to prevent problems with the handle slabs (not shown in the photo). So he decided to start with 1/8" stock which will be ground down to the 3/32" spine starting at the base of the blade. That's a bit of extra grinding, 1/64" from each side of the stock. I want George to know that I know enough about knives and knife making to appreciate his effort.

Depending on whether or not he ever wants to do it again, I am prepared to say much or little about it at his discretion
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It stands to reason that the less a knife has to deflect the material it is cutting, the easier it will cut.
 
One of the first things I look at a knife is the spine. I want to know how thick it is, and does it have distal taper.

For a good cutting knife, distal taper is a great thing. You can have a thin 3/32" cutting area but a nice thick 3/16" spine at the base.
 
Yes edge geometry does play a critical role in cutting efficiancy. What I was trying to say is that it is easier to get a fine edge on a thin blade than it is to get on a thick one.
Alot of folks think that chopping is an important knife trait. Then you would certainly need a thicker blade & corrospondingly thicker edge). Personaly, I don't chop with my knives, there is a hatchet and a bow saw around for those chores
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Now for a personal pet peeve: magazine articles that feature the knife and the pile of 'kindlin' that it chopped up. That 'kindlin' is invariably stuff that you could break over your knee of stomp in half!
Pet Peeve Rant Mode Off...
Hey look at it this way, there is a whole 'nother genre of knives to buy...a 'thin' hunter & a 'thin' fighter...
smile.gif
 
Actually the knife started out as a piece of 1/4" stock and was cut down to the 3/16" blade thickness.

I generally decide on blade thickness based on anticipated use, this small boot knife seemed to require a stiff blade. Other knives require thinner or thicker blades depending on use be they fillet knives or bowie knives.

The thinnest blade that I make is a chicken killing knife for the local rabbi. It is made of 1/16" stock about 1" wide with a full taper grind,both sides. The blade is so thin at the cutting edge that is is more flexible than a razor blade but I have seen a person shave the ridges off his finger print with one. The intended use is to cut the chickens throat without the chicken even realizing that the throat has been cut ie no pain. This type of cutting performance is exceptional but it weakens the blade making it useless for any other task. It is the knifemaker's task therefor to tailor his product to the intended end use, it can be rewarding sometimes.

Oh by the way, a moyal messer is usually made from 3/16" stock for stiffness.


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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com


 
Thick blades on folders just look ridiculous; you can't chop or do much prying with them anyway because the joint will break long before the blade does.

A blade doesn't need to be 1/4" thick for self-defense. If you want to chop with a knife you need to add weight somehow, either in thickness or in width, and if you want to pry with it you need strength ... and some stainless steels are so much weaker than tool steels or plain carbon steel they have to be very much thicker to have the same strength....

A thick blade with an acute primary grind and thin edge can perform as well as a thin blade on some materials, but not on others. Try pushcutting cardboard with a Wedge or Opinel and then with any 1/4" blade no matter how acute the primary grind.


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-Cougar :{)
Use of Weapons
 
Once you see THAT knife, George, STIFFNESS is out of the question!!!
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Blues
(Been there, done that. Once was enough!)



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Live Free or Die

Blues' Knife Pix
 
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