Thinking of starting a Knife company

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Many of us here remember companies that claimed factories in places there were none and steel that was misidentified. It's well known you can have any country or steel type stamped on knives you have made at a PRC factory. Before asking a retailer to pay $40,000 for an order of your knives you need to expect to have to prove more than that you're a likeable guy. I will pay for a knife but under no circumstances will I buy a PRC made knife. I don't mind buying Taiwan made high end products but I'm going to want to know you are actually using American or Japanese made steels and not mislabeled steel coming from a PRC foundry going to your shop. That is just me though. Others feel different. Be aware what the market demands. It's not just knives that check off 1) Titanium, 2) Carbon fiber, 3) CPM steel. I want to know who is making my knife and where I will be sending it for warranty. That needs to be a US address so I'm not having the added issue of customs and international shipping. In fact I'd need to know why I'm not putting in my order to a custom maker at those prices.

Joe

Having worked in Suppy chains across industries, this is a major issue across most asian countries, not just China. Here we would use our contacts in Aerospace to get certified Titanium and I wouold source the Blade steels direct from the manufacturers in the US and Europe. I have seen metals and composites with correct paperwork fail at levels not possible for the claimed product. Planning on sourcing composites from a business I hve an interest in that provides carbon for the military, so the good stuff

As per previous comment, agree and we will set up a US distributer or exclusive reseller

As for the custom comment, it would depend on the definition as the knives would be more custom than most so called custom makers who make short runs. Each knife we plan to do will be customizable and made to order based on a design. My definition of custom is clean sheet full custom so we may be just talking semantics. The price comes from if you want a hand mirror polished blade, it will still take me days to do this one step regardless of if I am sitting in a factory in the US or in Thailand

thanks for the feedback and please everyone keep supporting Taiwan

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

I would not have a problem buying a quality knife made in Thailand.
If you research the general market on anything.........everyone wants to produce high end, high priced products.
Now if you make a quality product at affordable prices. You will get people's attention. You can still have a higher end line knives
Thailand is not a country with high labor cost and people know this.....
I do hope that you will pay and treat the people that work for you fair.

When I was in business my goal was to have my customers feel they paid a good price for a great product.

Well that's my two cents.....

Thanks for the comments

I agree that regardless of where you are based, we need to look after our staff. This is true in any country and especially true in countries where workers are taken advantage of such as Thailand, China and Mexico. We will be doing most of the knife making ourselves as we are not in Thailand to chase low costs but will look after our staff well as we will be working with people we already have worked with and they will be chosing to come work with us, and leaving already good jobs

If we (or the market) think we can't provide the best value at any price point, we wont do it. Based on feedback here, we are already looking at moving further down the price market too. The question then becomes how to be different

cheers

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Welcome to the forums and I wish you well in your endeavor.

Personally, I've never paid more then $140ish for a knife, so I won't be a buyer. I'm quite content with a knife found under my "self imposed limit".

I agree with many of the others in this post. I don't think Thailand made will be a problem although there will be initial hesitation due to a new company.

Another big question .... warranty. Have you given any thoughts to warranties and/or warranty work? I think most folks would agree, we live in a disposable world. If something breaks, buy a new one. At $400+, people will want some protection and peace of mind and sending something back to Thailand might be a turn off.

Make sure you are up to date on social media. Instagram, Snapchat, etc are a great way to advertise your wares and/or do business.

Good luck!

Great feedback thanks

I am also happy with my Ontario Rat as well as a couple of Spidercos, they are excellentEDC knives. Sometimes I just like I like to wear a Breitling instead of my Seiko (which is also awesome) and spoil myself

God points on the Warranty, the plan is to set up a US distributor to handle warranties, but before then, we would ship spares through any resellers we set up in the US. Any recomendations? We definately will keep the ability to make spares for any knife that was damaged as it bugs the c#$p out of me when I have to throw out a good product due to 1 part

Currently pricing out a 3inch flipper made of high grade allow that may be in your price range

cheers

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Thailand is known for gold, sapphires and carved jade. My wife took me to the cleaners when we visited. Lots of skilled artisan craftsman/women making exceptional stuff.

Good luck, Thailand is just as bad as China with patents. No respect!

LOL, my wife is Thai so lucky she does not buy this stuff. Would love to do some artisan knives at some point though maybe with some local artists

I assume other will copy what we are doing with regards to designs, having worked across Asia for many years, they fall apart in the details so I would rather focus on doing the best product we can. Our expertise will be hard for them to copy

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

You might want to learn as much as possible about Olamic knives, they are able to execute a model similar to what you are proposing, but who knows what hurdles they overcame to get there.

Thanks, this is similar in concept to what we are looking at with levels of customisation but with different frame styles. They must have excellent Supply chain skill to match their manufacturing. We plan on offerering every knife with LH or RH options, multiple blade shapes, Handle finishes and any color options. I think people here are trying to compare to mass produced stuff which we could make much cheaper

Now I migt have to get a Wayfarer classic, that looks sweet

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Not to sound snarky.......but have you Ever made a knife before?
You talk about various manufacturing experiences, but I didn't read anything directly pertaining.

Why are your knife ideas worth as much as you think?
Not saying they aren't.....but still asking.


Lots of marketing companies come and go. I know for Me, trust is important.

I'm wishing you all the best

Hi Crag

Not snarky at all, I asked for feedback so thanks

Yes I have designed and made blades before in Taiwan but not much crossover as these were forged kitchen knives

I expect the average price point to be around the $600 mark as the top end was for basically full hand done custom with hand mirror polished blades and exotic materials. What we believe would make them worth that is we will be making every part in house (except bearings), offering full customisation, and using our experience making luxury metal parts to provide finishing comparable to knives priced above what we will charge. Thats the plan anyway and if we could not reach the quality level we are chasing, we would not release them.

Hoping when we show the first model we will produce, it will become clearer and welcome as much snarkyness on the design as possible to pick it to bits so we can iterate and improve before full release

Cheers

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Do you want to start a business as an entrepreneur? Or, do you want to be a knife maker? Sounds like you're an entrepreneur looking for the next venture.

Want to make knives I would want to buy

If I wanted to just start a business, Aerospace has much more $$$

cheers

 

[rhino]

If $400 is the entry level, I would expect a strong track record for very high quality end products, innovative designs, first rate materials, impressive performance, etc. I wouldn't even consider paying that much for an unknown, regardless of how awesome it might just be some day.

Given that, I wish the original poster well in his new endeavor! I hope for success!

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

For some potential buyers, probably. Anecdotally, there's a vocal portion of the community won't buy knives made in China; I don't know how those folks feel about knives made in Thailand.

But manufacturers based in Asia are doing excellent knife manufacturing work these days, and have been doing so for many, many years. There's absolutely a market for knives made in Asia at the higher end of the production price spectrum.


There are lots of US-based designers contracting with China-based companies like WE and Reate to produce their designs, or doing design work for other China-based companies like Kizer and Bestech, so if the quality and price and there I'm sure you'd find some partners.

Personally, I'd be more concerned about your starting price point being well into "high-end production knife from well-established companies" territory. Your proposed top-end price is up there in the rare air occupied by Shirogorov and the like, and well past many midtechs of exceptional quality -- heck, well into custom territory.

But if you've got something that sets you apart from folks already doing this work extremely well and at competitive prices, more power to you and I wish you the best of luck. It will certainly be an interesting venture.

Thanks for the feedback

The Shiro CD and Grand Seiko 60th are both on my wish list when I can find one. The Shiro is the standout of all the knives I have held if you exclude full customs (which seem to be made with witchcraft).

That may be the way forward for us too, making for existing companies once we demonstrate our abilities. I have worked with a couple of well regarded knife makers in Aerospace so thanks for the thought

cheers

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Considering country of origin,
I would not mind a nice fixed blade at this price point, ethnic or classic designs, with the adequate materials.
I won't get a folder tho.

As a HEMA guy, I am planning on doing a few classic dagger designs later on. Price would be lower as faster to make

Any classic designs you had in mind?

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Some really good advice given here. I think the market for such a product will be limited at that price range, and with costs of premium materials as you are suggesting, you would have too much overhead, and shipping could be a problem. I would suggest a lower Price point with a bigger market segment. I think there is a market for designs that are based in traditional Thai patterns Or other Asian patterns. I think of Citadel knives, there are unique enough and different from the other knives and they offer good materials. Would offering just a few patterns in folders and fixed help, until you feel out what the demand for certain styles are in that segment? I wish you all the best in your efforts and i think it is admirable and courageous to explore your ideas. Lastly, is there a market for such knives in Asia? Or at least in your native Australia? Knives you can depend on for outings and also for general everyday use? I have read the laws in Australia can be restrictive, so would you need to ship eventually to the US?

Thanks for the feedback

Small market in Asia as it is very price sensitive and too many fake clones. Definately going low volume to see where demand is but shipping to the US is not to bad as can Air freight due to small sizes.

Australian knife laws are stupid, but lets not go down that rabbit hole.

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

How are you going to heat treat the knives? Have Definitely will need distributors and/or partners in the EU and USA. I think you will be better served by producing knives in the $150 to $300 range initially. Maybe some boutique or special runs with higher level materials and higher prices.

I'm not sure that would qualify as made in USA

Yeah there is a content quota and I would not want to misrepresent

 

[BillZee]

I had made a comment earlier......
I have some other thoughts.........
First with your background you have the skills to make a fine product.
Although quality isn't the only thing that defines a high end product, it is the status of owning the product.
You have to build the brand.......
and that will cost more in time money then making the knives.
If you make a 1000 knives and 10,000 people want them..........
Get one of your knives in a hollywood movie that is a box office hit.......
The sky is the limit on price.
The high end products success is as much bullsh*t as quality.

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
Steve Jobs.

Why do people love $700 knives?
How did other makers get there to make $700 knives and be in business still?
Do it because you can and the journey is the reward and not the bottom line.
Do you want to make knives for amusement or for profit? If it is for fun or for profit, grow in economy of scale.
Does going to blade shows and talking to people who love $700 knives seem fun to you?
Make sure this dream is worth sacrificing other dreams and you will be ok. If other dreams are more important, make boundaries that will protect those dreams.

I think if you have the means, you can spend your money on whatever makes you happy

I doubt anyone becoes a knife maker thinking they will be rich though

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

How are you going to heat treat the knives? Have Definitely will need distributors and/or partners in the EU and USA. I think you will be better served by producing knives in the $150 to $300 range initially. Maybe some boutique or special runs with higher level materials and higher prices.

I'm not sure that would qualify as made in USA

Heat treating is one process we will outsource initially. We could heat treat ourselves but have a company here in Thailand that we already use in aerospace and they are very good and can test each blade for hardness

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

It may work or it may not. We don’t even have a concept for these knives. Why don’t we start at the beginning. Do you want to produce fixed blades, folders or both?

n2s

Good point, I am talking about folders but will also do fixed blades later on based on historical blades. these would be at lower price points.

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

I had made a comment earlier......
I have some other thoughts.........
First with your background you have the skills to make a fine product.
Although quality isn't the only thing that defines a high end product, it is the status of owning the product.
You have to build the brand.......
and that will cost more in time money then making the knives.
If you make a 1000 knives and 10,000 people want them..........
Get one of your knives in a hollywood movie that is a box office hit.......
The sky is the limit on price.
The high end products success is as much bullsh*t as quality.

Great point, the brand and idea is what people buy into.

Look at Rolex, huge demand for well made but hardly industry leading watches

This is something that may hold true for many makers as we are mostly product people trying to make the best knife we can, but less on the whole experience. Look at the packaging for some 'premium knives'.

No longer have any Hollywood contacts so no luck there lol.

 

[Zodiac Bladeworks]

Seems like your "Entry Level" at $400 is equivalent to Chris Reeve Knives and your the high end at $1200 is equivalent to Shirogorov production knives. Both of these are Knife Makers \ Designers first. The market for production knives in those price ranges diminishes quickly.

Between $400-$1200 there's lots of Custom Knife Makers with very compelling designs and materials available. So many that I can't imagine being interested in a production knife from Thailand at the same price points.

There's more to a knife than manufacturing ability. Being made in Thailand might not hold you back but it doesn't add anything when trying to sell to the American Market.

1) Identify the current players in each market segment. Identify what they're offering at each price point. Can you actually compete against these offerings?
2) Identify the current offerings at incremental price points and look for gaps in coverage. Is there a price point or need being left unfulfilled?
3) Partner with a skilled \ known knife maker \ designer to bring his ideas to fruition on a larger scale.
4) Marketing? Were you thinking of selling through Dealers or trying a direct approach via social media etc?
5) Watch the For Sale Forums here on Bladeforums- See what's selling, what's not, the price vs what's being offered.
6) Scour Instagram etc and see what the buzz is, what's moving, price points, interest levels and markets- What geographic areas are active and buying.

Thanks for such well thought out feedback

We really need better terms to describe Custom, production etc. So we can compare apples

1) We have done and believe we can offer competative value
2) Not that I have seen. There is a knife or variant at every price point so need to ffer better value
3) Others have suggested this so will bring some knives to Blade show West to demonstrate quality and have some of these discussions thanks
4) Dealers as I would not feel comfortable asking others to send CC details overseas to a maker thay know little about. Dealers can hep with any warranty concerns too
5) Have been, thats how I found this site. Was looking for a unicorn Slysz bowie (original) and started reading the forums
6) good idea, been heavily focused on product but need to broaden perspective. Not just for my taste

cheers

 

[microbe]

Set up a crowdfunding campaign for one of your knife designs to feel the market potential. If you can pull of a good first, you can build from that.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I think there is a place for niche knife manufacturing but competing with long-established firms would be a formidable undertaking. Sounds like a great retirement project but not something I'd risk my future on.