Thinnest Game Warden..

bluejaunte said:
Really? So if I put a new set of tires on a Honda Civic, it's no longer a Honda Civic?

What if I put a riced-out "body kit" on it?

What if I turbocharge the engine?

What if I replace the engine with one from an S2000?

What if I replace the engine with a 350 small block Chevy?

At what point is the car no longer a Honda Civic?

Similarly, after what amount of grinding and modification is a Busse Game Warden no longer a Busse Game Warden, and something else entirely?
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Well-executed modifications generally enhance the cause, they don't degrade it. If you want a .010 Warden, and Busse doesn't make one, I think most intelligent folks would agree that a modded one is going to be of greater value by virtue of its uniquness, not lesser value.

Same as the premise behind the Civic swaps... although I'd probably go the B-series route rather than the K-series. :)
 
I personally think you can call it a Busse Game Warden as long as it is yours but if you sell it all modifications should be disclosed and noted as to who performed the mods. I always note whether a knife for sale has been sharpened even though it only takes off a few layers of INFI molecules. I don't think that it is a legal issue just an honesty issue.
 
I find it hard to believe that Busse Combat would not help you if your modded knife needed repair.
 
I find it hard to believe that Tony rides that show cat to work. My bet is that he carries it with him on a silk pillow.
 
steelnut said:
I find it hard to believe that Busse Combat would not help you if your modded knife needed repair.
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ummm... I'm sure Jerry would do what he can, and there are select knife makers he may be more willing to accept mods from, but... here's what he had to say about it back in 2000.

Jerry Busse said:
Busse Combat is proud to have the toughest warranty in the industry. Busse Combat Grade, Combat Basics, and Combat Customs are guaranteed for life against any and all MAJOR damage.

Common sense dictates that we do not cover “intentional” damage. For example: If you cut a Busse Combat Knife in half with an acetylene torch (on purpose) and then return it for replacement, we are not going to be very excited about giving you another one.

We have been asked recently how modifications of our knives might affect our warranty. Modifications can change the very nature and authorship of a knife. Simply put, we cannot warrant workmanship that we do not perform.

Specifically, if you have modifications done to your knife, outside of our shop, and the modifications adversely affect the integrity and/or performance of your knife, causing it to fail, then it should be noted that “OUR” warranty will not cover “YOUR” modifications. We will, however, continue to cover the parts of your knife that are left unaffected by your modification. For example: If you have mastodon ivory grips put on your Steel Heart II by someone outside of our shop, then our warranty will continue to cover everything except the ivory grips. So be careful. BEFORE you have any modifications done to your knife, make sure that the person doing the modification will guarantee their workmanship.

Busse Combat encourages extreme usage of our blades as they are without question “The Toughest Knives in the World”. We have no rivals. You can use a Busse Combat knife as hard as you like and our warranty has you covered. If you have any specific warranty questions please feel free to email me at busse@bright.net .

Yours in Nuclear Toughness,
Jerry Busse
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Here's the link to the above if you're interested.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135390&highlight=affect
.
 
steelnut said:
Tony is very eco-conscious,
He rides this show cat to work.
It is quite common in San Francisco....
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He's big enough that he could pull me there on my skate board. But then he'd want $20.00 worth of food and he'd still be sleeping when I needed to get home.

Guyon said:
I find it hard to believe that Tony rides that show cat to work. My bet is that he carries it with him on a silk pillow.
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Actually I use a carrier made for a medium small dog. That way he doesn't smack his head on the interior’s top.

As to cars:
I said that things that burn gas don’t interest me not that I don’t use them. Kind of like a person not interested in knives but they use them in the kitchen. Most years I ride a bike more miles than I drive a car.

I do get to work by walking, bicycle, or bus, or a combination of bike and train. And I prefer that over driving, but I do drive at times. I don’t do that to be “green” I just like not being stuck in traffic outside the city and getting pissed off. Also if there is any kind of delay I can read and work. It works great for me… I’m happy. :thumbup: :)
 
tsiloics said:
Well-executed modifications generally enhance the cause, they don't degrade it. If you want a .010 Warden, and Busse doesn't make one, I think most intelligent folks would agree that a modded one is going to be of greater value by virtue of its uniquness, not lesser value.
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While they may enhance the cause they do degrade market value. The knives below are a good example.

The top one is a full convex grind done by Bark River. Great job! great edge! great user. my recent cost---$350

Knives like the bottom one have sold on the exchange for $500 and sold in a flash. The second one is one of those that some one would offer a ton of money for (maybe well over $600) but if you send it to Bark River for the same convex job it wouldn't be worth $375.

MSuser.jpg
 
^Once again, you're talking as though market value is the only kind of value. I'll wager you could find something more lucrative to do with the cash value of your Busses, so presumably there's some other motivation involved... like the experience of interacting with the knives. If that's true, then there must also be some potential for enhancement in that realm, and that's what I'm trying to get at.
 
I've held off on modding my old LMS, although not exactly to protect replacement value. My concern was that something better would come along, and then I'd be sorry I'd altered the older knife.

As it happens, two "better" knives came along, the AD and the GW. Not better in terms of their value to my collection, but knives that work better for EDC when thinned down - at least IMO. So, I'm glad I waited and left the LMS in its original state, except for laying back the final grind.

Another consideration is the greater availability of the AD's and GW's. Makes them a little safer to cut on, in case you end up with a 'Ducci. :eek:
 
tsiloics said:
^Once again, you're talking as though market value is the only kind of value. I'll wager you could find something more lucrative to do with the cash value of your Busses, so presumably there's some other motivation involved... like the experience of interacting with the knives. If that's true, then there must also be some potential for enhancement in that realm, and that's what I'm trying to get at.
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OK I see what you are saying. Sure but that wasn't what I was talking about.

But even in the functional sence I'd worry about a lot of grinding messing up the heat treatment (would you actually have INFI any more:confused:) and of course the warranty is gone.

I know a lot about bicycle frames and what makes a great frame is the total design. If I get a custom Della Santa frame and then pull his fork he designed for that frame and put in an after market carbon fiber fork the frame may overall end up lighter and have more absorption of road shock. BUT it no longer has the magic Della Santa feel. And that is the nuance of great products that I’m trying to convey.
 
Not to take anything away from Bark River.... I think that Mike Stewart and team does some of the best convex edges around.

Using that particular Old Style MS is not a good comparison because not everyone likes the look and appreciates the performance of a full convex grind. That one was worked on with the idea that it is going to be a full out beater and user. I don't think that much attention if any was put in for asthetic reasons. A full convex takes away the clean sharp lines and in return gives back much higher cutting efficiency. Because of this, it is not everyones cup of tea. Also, most people want the Older MS as collector pieces and not users.

A more fair comparison would be to a flat ground mod done by Siegle or Tom Krein. A flat ground with straight clean lines seems to be the taste of a wider audience. I would be willing to bet that those can sell for at least original cost of the knife if not more. This is assuming that the owner paid a fair market value for the knife.

Does a GW become something else when it is heavily used and sharpened many times? Well YES! It just becomes a heavily used GW.

Does a GW cease to be one when someone thins it down to something like the one in the middle?

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NO! It just became a thinner GW. You can call it whatever you see fit but at the end of the day it is still a GW made of INFI. If that middle knife is not a GW then someone please tell me what the hell it is?
 
Yep, I like that one in the middle. Can you tell me who did that and how much(if you want to)? Maybe pm me ?? I also hope to taper the handles toward the butt to make it lighter(yes I have to change scales).:thumbup:
 
Tony G said:
OK I see what you are saying. Sure but that wasn't what I was talking about.

But even in the functional sence I'd worry about a lot of grinding messing up the heat treatment (would you actually have INFI any more:confused:) and of course the warranty is gone.

I know a lot about bicycle frames and what makes a great frame is the total design. If I get a custom Della Santa frame and then pull his fork he designed for that frame and put in an after market carbon fiber fork the frame may overall end up lighter and have more absorption of road shock. BUT it no longer has the magic Della Santa feel. And that is the nuance of great products that I’m trying to convey.
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Picking up on the bike frame thing, if I understand your involvement in cycling correctly, you have a pretty well-developed skillset, and 30 years or so of experience in the game. You have physical faculties and intellectual experience that allow you to understand the nuances a good frame has to offer... perhaps even to a higher degree than the builder himself, because you've put in the time to develop the required sensibilities. Your ability to use the hardware doesn't necessarily translate into the ability to tune it, though. Of course this is why god made mechanics. The beauty of the relationship between rider and mechanic is that jointly they posess a broader spectrum of perception than either of them does individually.

You used the example of drilling holes in a Strad. Gernerally speaking, the people who can afford to collect those instruments aren't the ones who can play them, at least not at full bore. So there's another interesting relationship: One guy has the resources to acquire the hardware, but he needs to enlist someone else to fully bring forth the instrument's capabilities.

Back to the knives. Fortunately it doesn't take several million bucks to purchase one of these things. I'm sure you have more money to play with than I do, and yet there are plenty of things I do at greater cost than say, $300/day. So why not cut on a $300 knife? Or a $197 knife, for that matter? Even if I hose it, I'm probably going to get $197 worth of edification out of the deal. Unless I'm just flailing wildly, I'm probably going to end up with something unique to add to the collection.

Also, an off-the-shelf GW or AD... or LMrS, or even BAIII is a helluva lot simpler than a bike frame. The nuances, as it were, are more easily understood and controlled.

Basically all I'm saying is that I think there's likely more to be gained than lost modding on these knives - in moderation. And as you say, it's probably wise to retain specimens in their original form.

As far as heat-treat goes, you're not going to have any effect on that at all, as long as the blade is kept reasonably cool during grinding. It's easy enough to regrind a small blade without even reaching the temperature it would see sitting in the afternoon sun.
 
tsiloics said:
As far as heat-treat goes, you're not going to have any effect on that at all, as long as the blade is kept reasonably cool during grinding. It's easy enough to regrind a small blade without even reaching the temperature it would see sitting in the afternoon sun.
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FYI, INFI is tempered at 900+ degrees and its many times hotter than what a human hand is capable of holding onto.

The knife should not get even a few hundred degrees if new belts and a reasonable amount of care is used while grinding. BTW, alot of knife makers regrind to the final desired finish and edge geometry after heat treating. This is done because extra metal is left at the edge or throughout the blade to prevent warping of the blades during the heat treat process.
 
Tony G said:
He's big enough that he could pull me there on my skate board. But then he'd want $20.00 worth of food and he'd still be sleeping when I needed to get home.



Actually I use a carrier made for a medium small dog. That way he doesn't smack his head on the interior’s top.

As to cars:
I said that things that burn gas don’t interest me not that I don’t use them. Kind of like a person not interested in knives but they use them in the kitchen. Most years I ride a bike more miles than I drive a car.

I do get to work by walking, bicycle, or bus, or a combination of bike and train. And I prefer that over driving, but I do drive at times. I don’t do that to be “green” I just like not being stuck in traffic outside the city and getting pissed off. Also if there is any kind of delay I can read and work. It works great for me… I’m happy. :thumbup: :)
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After the last 20 years, I would be too! Sounds like Heaven to me ... around Northern VA and DC, I'm force into using a car. I'd let that go in a heartbeat, if I could find another way to 'make it work.'

One day, one day. :D
 
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