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yeah it has a 2.88" blade. i know that neckin it under my shirt is illegal. but with a tek lok on my belt i dont imagine it will be a problem
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This knife legal in California?
- Thread starter CuriousGeorge
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yeah it has a 2.88" blade. i know that neckin it under my shirt is illegal. but with a tek lok on my belt i dont imagine it will be a problem
Can anyone tell me if carrying a Balisong TRAINING model is illegal? I called my local PD and Sheriff's office and they gave me the "why would you?" I realize that if someone perceives it as a weapon then I could be in a bind but simply carrying one that is my question.
Here is a model im interested in carrying: http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BM40TR
Here is a model im interested in carrying: http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BM40TR
Most definitions of a "knife" include such terms as "a cutting or stabbing instrument" and "a sharpened edge and/or point". At my old martial arts academy there was a cop who took the position that blunt-tipped, totally edgeless training implements like the one you linked are not really "knives" because they are not "cutting or stabbing instruments" and don't have "a sharpened edge or point". He thought that such trainers did not, therefore, come under the knife laws. [His rationale would not apply to semi-sharp trainers.]
That's just one cop's interpretation of CA law but I think that rationale would provide at least a reasonable defense. Nonetheless, if I were transporting a trainer like that I'd probably put it in a locked case just to reduce my legal risk. Otherwise, I'd use it at home or the martial arts academy.
Perhaps Morimotom can provide a second LEO opinion?
DancesWithKnives
That's just one cop's interpretation of CA law but I think that rationale would provide at least a reasonable defense. Nonetheless, if I were transporting a trainer like that I'd probably put it in a locked case just to reduce my legal risk. Otherwise, I'd use it at home or the martial arts academy.
Perhaps Morimotom can provide a second LEO opinion?
DancesWithKnives
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653k pc does not require a switchblade have a sharpened edge.
however, 12020 pc requires that a dirk/dagger be a "stabbing" weapon capable of inflicting great bodily injury or death.
in and of itself, imo, a trainer does not meet the elements under 12020, but does under 653k. but depending on the size/weight, a trainer could be considered a sap/billy. i would also submit that various trainers come with varying degrees of "sharpness". my emerson kerambit trainer, while not sharpened, could still do some damage as an impact weapon, or with enough force i suppose, puncture skin.
a bali trainer, per the letter of the law, appears to be illegal to carry should it exceed the 2" blade limit.
it should also be noted, that brandishing such an item, should the victim believe it to be real, would be a separate violation regardless of the legality of the knife in question (for example).
if you are taking classes/training and use knife trainers, it would be best to transport them in the trunk/cargo area of your vehicle. beyond that, i see no reason to carry one other than to attempt to skirt the existing laws (not suggesting that is your intent).
however, 12020 pc requires that a dirk/dagger be a "stabbing" weapon capable of inflicting great bodily injury or death.
in and of itself, imo, a trainer does not meet the elements under 12020, but does under 653k. but depending on the size/weight, a trainer could be considered a sap/billy. i would also submit that various trainers come with varying degrees of "sharpness". my emerson kerambit trainer, while not sharpened, could still do some damage as an impact weapon, or with enough force i suppose, puncture skin.
a bali trainer, per the letter of the law, appears to be illegal to carry should it exceed the 2" blade limit.
it should also be noted, that brandishing such an item, should the victim believe it to be real, would be a separate violation regardless of the legality of the knife in question (for example).
if you are taking classes/training and use knife trainers, it would be best to transport them in the trunk/cargo area of your vehicle. beyond that, i see no reason to carry one other than to attempt to skirt the existing laws (not suggesting that is your intent).
Very good point about the semi-sharp trainers. The LEO at my old academy and I were discussing a totally blunt, edgeless trainer. I modified my last post accordingly. Thanks.
With regard to 653k, I have a higher regard for your opinion on this subject than mine, being that you are a LEO and actually work with these laws. However, just for the sake of discussion, I note that 653k refers to a "switchblade KNIFE" (emphasis added by me). I have a novelty switchblade comb that is about 4" long. It doesn't have a sharpened edge or point so I doubt anyone would argue that it is a "knife". I'm just suggesting that under 653k the implement in question must first be a "knife" before it can be considered a "switchblade knife". If a totally blunt, edgeless trainer truly has no point or sharpened edge, it seems like a stretch to classify it as a "knife" under commonly accepted definitions. And if it's not a knife, it doesn't seem that it would matter whether or not it opens automatically or like a bali.
That said, infidelxx should follow Morimotom's advice since the people who will be enforcing the law probably read the statute more like he does than I do.
Thanks again for your experienced insight!
DancesWithKnives
With regard to 653k, I have a higher regard for your opinion on this subject than mine, being that you are a LEO and actually work with these laws. However, just for the sake of discussion, I note that 653k refers to a "switchblade KNIFE" (emphasis added by me). I have a novelty switchblade comb that is about 4" long. It doesn't have a sharpened edge or point so I doubt anyone would argue that it is a "knife". I'm just suggesting that under 653k the implement in question must first be a "knife" before it can be considered a "switchblade knife". If a totally blunt, edgeless trainer truly has no point or sharpened edge, it seems like a stretch to classify it as a "knife" under commonly accepted definitions. And if it's not a knife, it doesn't seem that it would matter whether or not it opens automatically or like a bali.
That said, infidelxx should follow Morimotom's advice since the people who will be enforcing the law probably read the statute more like he does than I do.
Thanks again for your experienced insight!
DancesWithKnives
Thank you for the opinions and expert advice. while I agree that it does not meet the definition of a blade I do understand the fact that it could be perceived as a weapon and therefore shouldn't be opened in public. My sole purpose for wanting to carry one is recreation. I really enjoy flipping and it is therapeutic in a weird way.
As a Firefighter I need to relax as often as possible. I was hoping that there was some way to practice my hobby whenever I felt like it and not break any laws.
So, I would I think that the Bali pens could be considered a weapon also?
http://www.lighthound.com/Spyderco-...inspired-pen--black-with-blue-ink_p_3309.html
As a Firefighter I need to relax as often as possible. I was hoping that there was some way to practice my hobby whenever I felt like it and not break any laws.
So, I would I think that the Bali pens could be considered a weapon also?
http://www.lighthound.com/Spyderco-...inspired-pen--black-with-blue-ink_p_3309.html
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those aren't weapons those are toys. they have a pen! they weigh like one ounce. if you were flipping that and someone stopped you they would instantly know it wasn't a knife and leave you be. at least i hope. also if you are gonna get a Baliyo get an American one. the black ones are chinese. mine broke in like two weeks.
This state scares a man! If a graphite knife is banned then why not a 1 OZ balisong pen that Could gouge an eye out? I am just trying to cover all my bases. I do not want to end up wearing orange and going by the name "sweet cheeks" because I was flipping a pen in the park or on my fire truck and someone got scared.
If you are carrying a knife for self-defense, I would stick to a blade length of 4" or so, fixed or folder. Believe me, it is more than adequate to inflict a serious, if not fatal, wound on any two-or-four-legged assailant. If you go for a fixed blade, a 4" model can easily be carried in the belt or waistband, cross-draw style. It will be less visible to bystanders while you are crouched over in the saddle of your bike, but still not illegally concealed.
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This may not be entirely accurate. I have heard of cases where a knife was on the belt, and a shirt or jacket slipped over it and hid the handle, and people got into trouble. Check into this before trying it.
A cross-draw carry will allow access to the handle. This is what you want; handle exposed for a quick draw. I ride with my shirt tucked in and I have used this technique myself. Handle is exposed; perfectly legal. If you try this with an untucked shirt, the shirt will snag the handle and impede the draw. Perhaps I should have been more specific.
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this goes to the intent of the item. the bali pens and switch-combs are novelty items, more or less.
a knife trainer is not. an item that is designed to specifically replace a "weapon" during training so the bearer is not injured should not be compared to a writing or grooming implement.
a pen or similar item could certainly be used as a weapon, however, in and of itself, is inocuous. so is a steak knife, for example. but someone carrying around a steak knife in their pocket is doing so with previously considered intent, ie, as a defensive/offensive weapon. it is not an item normally carried in public, in a pocket.
trainers are not specifically addressed in any law i am aware of, so your common sense must prevail. if the trainer still functions and looks like a knife, then my advice would be not to carry it in public. it would not be much use as a defensive, or any type of, tool. doing so simply so you can practice wherever you are is not valid reasoning. this applies to the benchmade or emerson type trainers, not the flimsy rubber type. the color should also not be considered, since scales in virtually all colors are now readily available in sharpened, functioning knives. whereas once orange and red handles indicated it was a trainer, this is no longer necessarily the case.
in any event, any of these types of items would be considered reasonable suspicion to detain and search, and perhaps probable cause to arrest.
another example: someone uses a red unsharpened bali to commit a robbery. the victim believes the trainer to be a real knife, regardless of whether the item is actually sharpened or not. this would be an aggravating factor, and the act considered an armed robbery. this also applies to fake, ie airsoft or similar, firearms.
again, i suggest the training balis are prohibited per the letter of the law pursuant to 653k pc. a comb does not look like a knife. a trainer does; same blade shape, and often times all metal.
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This state scares a man! If a graphite knife is banned then why not a 1 OZ balisong pen that Could gouge an eye out? I am just trying to cover all my bases. I do not want to end up wearing orange and going by the name "sweet cheeks" because I was flipping a pen in the park or on my fire truck and someone got scared.
i know how you feel man. this state scares me a little bit.
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they are nearly identical.
Thanks - a little googling and I found the overall county code:
http://search.municode.com/html/16274/index.htm
Which is nicely search'able. Here is the relevant passage:
Now if only there was some case law concerning if a visible pocket clip counts as plain view...
http://search.municode.com/html/16274/index.htm
Which is nicely search'able. Here is the relevant passage:
Now if only there was some case law concerning if a visible pocket clip counts as plain view...