thoughts and recommendations

JJ_Colt45

JJ_Colt45

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I have not jumped fully into the world of the new so called "super steels" as far as many yet ... but I am considering trying some (for me) new steels ...

I have read alot on many of them and like anything you read 100 articles or ask 100 people you'll get 95 different opinions ... and yes I have used the search and read many threads ... I don't need the technical issues of one vs another or how they should compare ... but am hoping to get real world real use comparision feedback if possible ...

I have been looking at some knives in various steels and would just like to hear some real world opinions from those of you that have used these steels ... as far as edge retention ... ease or difficulty in sharpening and toughness and maybe even stain resistance ... or other factors you think matter ...

to see if it really makes sense for my uses to try these out ... there isn't anything I need to do that I can't do with the simplier steels that I have ... but as a knife knut ... I'm becoming curious about some new steels ...

a few I have been considering are S90V ... S110V ... Maxamet ... and Cruwear ... but I am also open to recommendations of other steels if you find one not listed that you have found to be a great blade.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts - JJ
 
JJ_Colt45 said:
there isn't anything I need to do that I can't do with the simplier steels that I have ... but as a knife knut ... I'm becoming curious about some new steels ...
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This is one of the best comments on knife knuts' enamorment with different alloys that I have ever read on BF. Well said!

Sharpening: if you can sharpen 440C, you can sharpen the others. The dividing line is whether a steel contains carbides. If not, you can use a Washita stone with no problems. If it does, then you need aluminum oxide or diamond to sharpen in a timely fashion.

You might consider adding M390 and some CPM M4 to your shopping list.
 
I do have a couple blades in M390 and really enjoy them ... and have had no problem sharpening them as you mentioned.

I don't own any M4 but I used a friends and it is a steel on my radar ... I have been interested in a Spyderco Manix in M4 ...

I just wasn't sure if there would be enough performance difference in some of the steels like S90V or S110V to warrent buying a knife and paying the extra for those type steels.
 
JJ_Colt45 said:
there isn't anything I need to do that I can't do with the simplier steels that I have ... but as a knife knut ... I'm becoming curious about some new steels ...
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knarfeng said:
This is one of the best comments on knife knuts' enamorment with different alloys that I have ever read on BF. Well said!
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I half agree, but I'm only speaking for myself. There's a lot with these super steels that I can't do that I can with my simpler steels. I'm unfamiliar with these newest super steels, and I don't have the equipment to maintain it yet. There's a lot I can do with VG-10 that I can't do with S90V. In my 25 year journey with knives, putting them in my pocket, cutting things, sharpening blades, and getting confused glances at bald patches on my arms, I've learned that the best steel isn't necessarily the best steel, it's the steel that I can use the best.

That said, I really want to get a 940-1 (S90V) and a 940-1501 (20CV), and a Spyderco Mantra 1 (M4). Some day...
 
I just reprofiled a Manix in s110v for cardboard use. Less than 15° per side. It took hours of work on a DMT extra coarse stone. But was it worth it? So far, it has outlasted anything else I used for cardboard. But that’s only with the reprofiling.

I think this sort of steel is only good if you are ok spending a good deal of money on diamond stones, and the hours it takes to research and grind a geometry that takes advantage of the steel.
 
I can understand your point of view well ... what I was trying to say is I can do anything I need with the simplier steels ... I know there is no "need" for me to have a super steel ... and I agree for many uses the simpliar steels may well be as good or even a better choice .... depending on individual needs and preferences ...

and part of my curiosity as you mentioned ... are the benefits of these super steels worth the extra cost and the extra equipment and time to sharpen and maintain them ...

I have tried a few ... I own a few M390 blades I like and find no big difference in sharpening ... as knarfeng brought up M4 is a steel I am very interested in getting ... I used a friends knife in M4 and I really liked the way it performed ... and I have a few knives in 3V or D3V ...

I have been looking at some Spyderco knives in S90V and S110V and Cruwear or Maxamet have been options on some knives I think about trying ...

I'm just trying to decide if the benefits are worth the extra cost.
 
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these are the type of real use experiences I was hoping to hear .... thank you for your post ...

Dangerously said:
I just reprofiled a Manix in s110v for cardboard use. Less than 15° per side. It took hours of work on a DMT extra coarse stone. But was it worth it? So far, it has outlasted anything else I used for cardboard. But that’s only with the reprofiling.

I think this sort of steel is only good if you are ok spending a good deal of money on diamond stones, and the hours it takes to research and grind a geometry that takes advantage of the steel.
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JJ, I'm one of the worst "steel junkies" I know. I try every new steel that comes out eventually. I do it for fun though as 1095, VG10 and S30V can do anything I really need. I will say though if you get up to the wear resistance levels of S90V or S110V you will do substantially more to get the same sharpness you get on something like Vg10/154cm even when using diamonds or Silicone carbide stones. I don't need these steels but I do like them. In particular 3V, Cruwear and CPM M4. I think they sharpen easier than the stainless steels and do the really thin edges a bit better. If it's for fun or learning purposes I say yeah. If not it's probably not really better than what you already like and know well. :)

Joe
 
The super high-wear steels like S90V, S110V, Maxamet, K390, 10V, Rex 121, etc., are really specialty steels for when you need or want extremely high wear resistance. They make extraordinarily good slicers if you use an acute blade/edge geometry. With aggressive edge geometry, they're not difficult to sharpen with diamond stones.

The downside is that they're not very tough and can chip on you.

Mid-range super steels, like M4, 3V, Elmax, M390, Vanadis 4E (or 4V) and Vanax SC, are truly fun to use. They have a good balance of toughness, strength and wear resistance. You can use them in a wide range of conditions. 3V makes for excellent choppers. M4 is well balanced. M390 is stain resistant with excellent wear resistance. Elmax has good wear and stain resistance and is plenty tough. V4E is almost as tough as 3V, but has better wear resistance. Vanax is super stain resistant, ultra fine grained for a keen edge, tougher than Elmax and holds an excellent edge.

Whether you like or need any of these steels depends on your use and your blade geometry. If you match your use, blade geometry and steel alloy/heat treat, these steels are wonderful -- much better than most other steels. If you don't match them well, they'll seem like a waste of money.

None are really hard to sharpen if you have the right stones and edge geometry. My Bluntcut Rex121 isn't difficult to sharpen, despite the extremely high wear resistance and high hardness, but the geometry is super acute. The edge width is 0.006 inches, so any sharpening requires very little metal to be used. It sharpens in a jiffy with diamond stones. And it cuts through cardboard like air. But it if had traditional geometry -- say 0.030 inches edge width -- it wouldn't cut any better than an ordinary knife and it would be an absolute bear to sharpen. I'd hate that steel in an ordinary EDC, but I love it as a specialty knife for opening packages and breaking down cardboard.

Phil Wilson uses a lot of super steels, but his blades have extremely acute cutting geometry. You have to use them correctly, and if you do, the edge will last forever. And because the edge is so thin, it's easy to resharpen. But they'd make poor choppers or hard-use knives.
 
Thanks Joe ... I do like the D3V I have and the M390 and they really haven't been hard to keep sharp ...

M4 is one that really has me wanting to try more ... I had seen runs of knives I like in S90V and S110V or Cruwear ... and it kind of had me curious but I'm not sure I can justify the extra for them ...

I still like 52100 and 1095 and S35VN CPM154 is anther I like ... but I think maybe for me I've found the limit to my dimishing returns with some of these super steels ... I'm sure for many they have a place but I'm thinking for me M390 D3V and maybe trying M4 a bit more might be about as far as I will go.
 
Thanks for all the responses ... I think it just kind of confirms for my uses I have gotten to that plateau of what I need and what would become just extra expense and time in maintaning them.

I really actually enjoy sharpening my knives ... but I do regular touch ups and rarely have to spend alot of time just to resharpen one blade ...

I think I will still try to get a Manix in M4 and the few I have in M390 or D3V might be about as much as I will ever need ...

after all for a good 10 years a Buck folder served about any purpose I had ... and most likely still could.
 
Now, I haven't done a heavy reprofile on the supersteels you've mentioned. I have heavily reprofiled and sharpened s35vn. So take what a say knowing that.

I've had no problem bringing back m390 with touching up. Same with its equivalents. I found s110 to touch up about the same but I didn't have that pm2 that long. I did have to put a tip back on it, damaged from the previous owner. I easily did it on a simple norton stone. For whatever reason s90v was a bit harder to get an edge back. I don't know if I let it get too dull or if I wasn't hitting the microbevel (first time having a blade with one). I took it to the work sharp and it came right back.

In general, I would say if you can handle m390 or it's variants, you should be fine with the other steels you are interested.

That said, if I could get all my knives in D3v from Nathan, I likely would. Toughness is extreme and edge retention is awesome. Stain resistance is perfectly acceptable. And even after days of wood processing, the edge comes right back with minimal effort.
 
Definitely try some M4. It is good stuff. The first time I did some wood carving with it on extremely hard oak, I was blown away by the edge stability.
 
Between the steels you've listed, if you'd prefer something that's more or less an upgraded 10**/5160/other simpler carbon steels(I know there's much more to it than that), CruWear would be the best choice. It's really stain resistant, amazing wear resistance(especially for how easily it can be touched up), and fantastic toughness. It's one of my all time favorites for sure. I'd be happy with CruWear on everything, CruWear on folders, CruWear on fixed blades, CruWear on slippies, CruWear kitchen knives, CruWear sunglasses, CruWear wheels, CruWear piercings! Everything!

If instead you're looking for something that can hold it's edge forever Maxamet and S110V would be some serious contenders. I've only had experience with S90V and I much prefer it to S30V/S35VN, but I'd rather have M390 over both. I imagine Maxamet would be tough to find in anything but Spyderco's, but apparently it's pretty wicked stuff.
 
I was impressed when I used a friends M4 Manix ... and it was easy to touch up so it's definately one I want to try at least ...

I don't think anything I do requires an edge to stay sharp for weeks ... I can touch them up easy enough and keep them sharp so I doubt I go the way of the S90V or S110V and those steels that the major benefit is long edge retention.


mb> said:
Definitely try some M4. It is good stuff. The first time I did some wood carving with it on extremely hard oak, I was blown away by the edge stability.
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Haven’t tried anything above Elmax. Not really a steel junkie S35VN and Elmax serve me well. Looking to try 20CV whenever Hinderer puts something out I like in it.

M4 looks amazing if I had a need for it I’d be all over a Contego
 
"after all for a good 10 years a Buck folder served about any purpose I had ... and most likely still could."

Me too. I have two older ones and they could last me the rest of my life if needed. Same with one of my 5 or more Enduras including the first one I bought back in 1992. With simple care they last forever it seems.

I have more time now I'm retired so I can play with other knives but I know deep down I really don't need to buy another knife for the rest of my life. I'm pretty sure I will though but only as long as I can get it without going broke. It is a hobby and I enjoy them. I could do worse things with my time and money I guess.

I have several 3V knives too including a Survive. With the right heat treat it is a well balanced great performing knife steel. 3V along with Cruwear and O-1 would be in the running for my "favorite" knife steel if I had such a thing. I like having more options though and will keep doing so as long as it is practical. When it no longer is or if I stop enjoying this hobby I'll stop.

Joe
 
I used M4 to stab and cut open one ton bags of agricultural lime that were suspended over a spreader. The steel was subjected to cutting through tough poly bag and compacted lime well over forty times at cuts measuring three feet in length. This is very hard on a knife and I was expecting edge chipping and some deflection. I found one “barely there” micro chip and nothing else. The egde was still very sharp. A few swipes ona DMT duofold removed the tiny chip.

Yes it will stain a bit but I love the patina. I have other steels such as S110v, s35vn, elmax, etc. For some reason I keep reaching for the Gayle Bradley when I known i have hard work to do and I need the blade to keep slicing.

Have fun in your search!
 
JJ-Colt45 -
I truly don't know what a "super steel" means. Some steel knives are much more expensive than others but I'm not sure that means they are "super" for the task they will be put to.

For a scuba diver it may be a knife like a Spyderco Pacific with H1 steel or a fixed blade with high chromium steel of some sort which is the "super steel" for his/her job. So much depends on how the knife is designed, manufactured, edge grind, size, etc. etc. and most importantly what job it will be used for.

My EDC is a Spyderco Gayle Bradley #1 for general use around the shop, property and home. It is made from high-speed tool steel of some sort. I don't baby it. It does what cutting I need without having to be sharpened excessively. I do give it the occasional squirt of WD-40 just because. I have some Leatherman in my cars'/truck's glove compartments just in case need a simple tool on the road. I must admit that I really don't even know what kind of steel Leatherman uses. My hunting knife is a Spyderco Bill Moran drop point because I like the light-weight, the great grip (for me), the good sheath, and Bill Moran definitely knew how to design hunting knives. I don't remember what kind of steel it has but it works very well for field dressing, etc.

Before I bought the knife I looked at the knife maker's description, and other recommendations and comments, and pretty much went along with the maker/user recommendations if the knife felt good in my hand. I think the manufacturers have beat this "super steel" issue to death and the knives from the better manufacturers will most likely do whatever job you need to do with a knife. You can find some good info on You Tube regarding basics of various knives without spending hours of time .

Lots of folks say, "You get what you pay for."

I always told my kids, "The price of perfection is infinite, and we don't have that much money."
 
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I think Twindog advice is spot on, Steels like S90v make excellent slicers.

On knives like his Bluntcut Rex121 or my Manly Wasp S90v, which is 0.104 at the spine and 0.012 BTE, these knives are just slicing machines.
But either of those steels are a waste on a blade like the Medford Praetorian has.

I profile S30v, M390 and S90v to 17 DPS with silicon carbide and only use a 600 or 800 diamond for the 20° micro bevel. Doing this I have no issues at all with micro chipping.
 
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