Throwing Dispute

To follow up on Will's point--and by the way, Will, there are other places where the football team never wins, ever, and I went to one myself--throwing techniques are not limited to knives.

The same techniques used to throw knives can be used to throw many other things, any of which can prove immensely useful in a bad situation. The notion that 'you're throwing away your only weapon' is a limited vision.

I learned this lesson the hard way: I have four dots in the thenar prominence at the base of my right thumb... scars from a guy who whipped a dinner fork at me twenty years ago. The fork stuck right in my palm--and it was a knife throwing technique he used. Good thing I caught it.
 
Will P. said:
I throw soley non-rotationally. Balance doesn't matter too much, but a neutral balance is best.

Edit: I've posted before about non-rotational throws with pictures/movies - not going to do it again in detail, so I hope the search function works soon. In short, the knife travels in a nearly flat arc - the rotation is suppresed on release by your hand's pressure on the handle part of the knife.
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anyone have any links?
 
Will P. said:
The only throws I do are non-rotational from 1-3 meters. Any knife will work, and the weight of the knife doesn't matter too much - at these distances, the penetration comes from the high velocity of the knife. My BM Nimravus is not longitudinally symmetric, and wobbles more in flight. Camillus boot knives work very well, as does the Gerber Guardian. The UTX-70 would work better if it were heavier. Throwing non-rotationally is very reliable and accurate with practice.
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all I could find, links please :D

if 1-3 meters is normal distance for non-rotation throw. do that already with deadly acuracy at full force. just requires a neutral balance blade. simply figure out where balance point of throw is and adjust accordingly. blades with some heft is easier to throw, but I've thrown accurately an Al Mar Sting to 15 ft.

Generally I use a large foam target for sighting in broadhead arrows. this allows you to throw at full force a blade you don't want to damage.

can anyone throw further than 3 meters reliably with non-rotational throw?

here's a pic of my throwing blades: original fairbairn sykes and two rare Al Mar Sting

throwing dagger.JPG
 
CY_ said:
can anyone throw further than 3 meters reliably with non-rotational throw?
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With an underhand non-rotational, I can usually hit up to 5 meters. It's pretty easy--the trick is merely getting the arc down so that the blade hits at a realistic height. It's also slower--the blade travels about 12 mph slower than my rotational overhand.

The problem with longer non-rotational throws is of course the rotation. Any object thrown with angular acceleration tends to rotate in flight. So you have at least two primary choices:

Counter the balance of the knife. This is effectively the Ralph Thorn method, and his loompanics web site has him sticking some jaw-dropping distances. Of course, this requires substantial modification of the blade itself. For me, this requires equally substantial modification time. Since my tactical throwing preference is to throw lots of things, other than knives, Ralph's method is great but limited to your preparation time. In other words, it's hard to throw field expedient objects with his method, and he covers that risk in his book.

The second choice: alter your throw. Sadly, this means making your throw less efficient for longer distances. I've seen Will P's throw, and at short ranges of 2-4 meters, it's a freaking dart. At longer distances, gravity takes over. The further you are from your target, the greater the drop. By putting arc into your throw, of course, you can counter the ballistic drop, but by doing so greatly increase the tendency to spin.

So that's the problem with finding experts at long-range non-rotational throws: the further you step back from the target, the greater the risk your blade will tumble in flight... or, you'll strike very low on your target.

Tradeoffs...
 
thanks for taking the mystery out of throwing non-rotation. been doing that way growing up...

have already tried via trial & error most things you've described. have spent countless hours simply throwing my blades.

IMHO that's what important, time spent throwing. getting your stroke down pat. sticking that wood consistantly!

don't think I need that book :D
 
CY_ said:
all I could find, links please :D


here's a pic of my throwing blades: original fairbairn sykes and two rare Al Mar Sting


Throwing a Fairbairn? Sounds unusual to me... I have one (ok, it's a cheap one made in Pakistan) but I don't really see how it can be a good thrower. Can you enlight me?
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The Fairbain is/was indeed intended to be a thrower by design. It's definitely meant for soft tissue targets, so if you want to practice throwing yours, chuck it at some melons.

It's very good for the Will P. style non-rotational throws, but handles all types of rotational throws admirably. What I wouldn't trust is throwing it into a solid object or letting it hit the ground. A lesser-quality Fairbain design could easily break or bend its tip.
 
cybrok said:
CY_ said:
all I could find, links please :D


here's a pic of my throwing blades: original fairbairn sykes and two rare Al Mar Sting


Throwing a Fairbairn? Sounds unusual to me... I have one (ok, it's a cheap one made in Pakistan) but I don't really see how it can be a good thrower. Can you enlight me?
Click to expand...

don't know about copies, but my original fairbarin has an excellent balance and throws excellently.

I'm very carefully about how I throw this valuable knife. only will throw it close range non-rotation into a thick foam target.

only reason I posted pic was topic of non-rotational throwing came up. and these are the knives I've practiced throwing close in with.

here's what I use for most normal throwing: Newt Livesay match set throwing knives

newt throwing.JPG
Click to expand...
 
There are various non-rotational or slow-rotational throwing methods, but they all sacrifice speed in the process. When you swing your arm in an arc to throw a knife it naturally imparts angular momentum. To counter that you have reduce your arc and/or impart sort of a counter-rotating motion. All this reduces the speed you can attain. The natural comparison for most red-blooded American boys is the difference between a knuckleball and a fastball. If you are throwing a particularly heavy knife this is less of an issue, if you are throwing a light knife you are sacrificing a lot. Say I lose 20% of my normal speed that sacrifices 37% of my kinetic energy. The kinetic energy is what I need to penetrate a thick jacket or bone. It's not all soft tissue out there. In addition it gives somebody more time to swat the blade as it comes.
 
To answer CY, my fairbairn copy is balanced in the handle, like a fighting knife should be, in the larger part of the handle to be precise.

Balanced for foghting, but for throwing?

Maybe I'll try it one day, when I'll be a better thrower. If it breaks, it will only be a good reason to buy a quality replica, or even a real one who knows.
 
All I know is if the blade is heavier throw it by the handle , if the handle is heavier throw it carefully by the blade . If its equal throw it the way you want . This is just a guideline . I can throw a crowbar and I never bothered finding a balance point .
 
Jeff, don't know what you mean by loss of momentum.

when I throw non-rotational, it's close up, accurate, lightning fast with full power.

it's one of those confidence things... if I have to throw my blade. 100% confidence I will hit my target!

cannot say that about std rotational throws. but you are back way further from target. Also you are not throwing at full power. objective of rotational throws is repeatablity. how hard you throw will effect speed of rotation and where tip will be at impact.

VS closeup non-rotational: How hard you throw blade will not effect trajectory like rotational throws. hince blade throws can be lightning fast with full power.

main drawback is distance of throw. I have not been able to consistantly throw non-rotational over aprox. 15 feet. even with balanced custom throw knives with heft.
 
I used to live next to a guy who was a ninja (no really, he was from Japan and after the war, WWII, he came here to teach to our military or something, then opened his own place, but when I knew him he was just this cool old guy who made mean sushi and had crazy storys about how bad it was in the Pacific theater for him.) One day this neighbor kid was goofing with throwing stars and we got to talking. He said he never saw them till her got here, but the really interesting thing is when he showed me these pointed rods about the size of a #2 ticondroga he used. He had me come at him and tossed them at me, I simply batted them out of the air but when I focused back on him be was gone. Turns out he hopped up into a tree (now this is a guy who at the time had to be in his late 70's or so) I am sure he probably could have throwen them to really hurt me but the point of it was to distract me so he could get away. I can't say they never used a throwen object to kill someone, but somehow what he said made sense.
 
I recently came across these videos of a Russian martial artist throwing non-rotational ( well 45 degree ) rotate from varying distances and its is amazing!!
Here is the link: http://www.knifethrowing.info/wave-throw.html He calls it the wave throw and he has incredible accurracy and even tosses two blades at once and they land within a foot of each other. And there is no sacrifice of speed, penetration, or accurracy. I'm sure he's been tossing it this was for a long time but he's very helpful explaining how he does it. All so type in Ralph Thorn and there's a TON of info reguarding his method.
 
Wow those are interesting places to be throwing from. I disagree completely on the above post about kinetic energy loss due to throwing in a arc. I have thrown up to 25 feet no-spin and there is no sacrafice penetration depth. My knifes are barely modified if at all with a bit of electrical tape on CS pro flight throwers. There is a great group on Yahoo called thebladethrower for no-spin throwing if you are interested. The hit of a no-spin throw is much more deadly than a spin throw any day of the week unless its past 22-26 feet. If you are lossing power and are arcing the blade a ton then you aren't throwing it the way most of the rest of us due. I am very accurate up to 15-18 feet no-spin and can group them almost better than spin throwing but past that it varies.
 
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