Thumb Holes in Knives of Alaska

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Seeking Trad Deer

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I know some of you get your undies in a bunch about other companies putting holes in their knives like Spyderco. I got a catalog of the new 2007 knives from Knives of Alaska and see they have added folders with thumb holes. Anybody see these knives yet?:eek:
 
I haven't seen the folders yet, just these two! ;)
knivesofalaska


I guess this would be called an 'Alaskie' hole.:rolleyes:

OH! Wait!..........There's a hole in the sharpening steel too! Damn hole thieves! :D
 
I've seen the "spatula" for awhile now, and yes, I thought it was a Spyderco the first time I saw it. Darn time waster.:grumpy:

jw
 
I forget the model number, but there is one that looks exactly like the Military. It was in the May issue of Blade, I believe.
 
I checked their web site and they are not showing them there. However, I have a brochure in front of me of their new 2007 products that is chunck full of folders with thumb holes. Sorry I can't post any pictures...I can't find any other than the brochure I got in the mail.
 
Maybe they think "if Benchmade can, we can too". This could be a major drawback of the secret agreement between Spyderco and BM. Now more Companys may try to get away with using the trademarked hole.
 
Well, it's a good thing the first buggie maker didn't "trademark" the wheel!

In my opinion, trademarks are fine if they are an insignia or some other identifying mark. I don't believe that a useful improvement that is as simple as a hole should be "owned" by anyone or any company.
 
JB - makers try this crap all the time. Sal could easily go broke trying to stop them all.

ClintB - this isn't the wheel we are talking about. It is a specific application of an earlier and much broader patent. There are many other things that were covered in the patent which will perform the same function, but the Spyderhole is the one that the patent holder chose to use as a trademark for his knives. In order to get the trademark registered, Sal had to prove "substantial brand recognition" i.e. he had to demonstrate that people associated the round opening hole with his products. Since the trademark was in fact registered, he must have proved this to the satisfaction of all the lawyers and bureaucrats involved in the process.

I have seen posts by several people arguing that the trademark should not have been allowed, and therefor it is permissible for others to violate it. That may not be the words they use, but that is what they mean. I hate to be the one to break the bad news, but:
a) It doesn't work that way. To challenge the trademark, you have to violate the law and be taken to court, taking the chance that you will lose everything if you don't convince the judge you are right. If you truly believe you are right, you don't "reach an agreement" to stay out of court.
b) The trademark on the Spyderhole IS registered, and unless you are a judge presiding over a trademark violation case brought by Spyderco, your opinion of the validity of that trademark has no effect on reality.

If that sounds excessively harsh, I'm sorry. There is an old Chinese proverb that says: "The truth doesn't have to be nice, just true".
 
Hi Yablanowitz,

Thanx for the explanation. It's that "going broke" part that most don't realize. There is no "patent police", only the lawyers.

BTW, knives of Alaska has been using their "finger hole" on their fixed blade for quite some time.

Hi ClintB,

It is quite difficult to come up with a concept, produce it, promote the hell out of it, fight to keep it and watch others run with it. It is frustrting for an inventor / designer to spend years developing and producing a concept only to have others receive the benefit.

It does often influence those to stop creating.

Spyderco also invented the pocket clip that is probably on your knife. Just about every knife company in the world has used that one. I can pat myself on the back and say "well done", but I can't pat my crew and vendors on the back, I have to pay them.

Spyderco does in fact have a trademark on the useage of a round hole at a certain location on the blade of a folding knife. I don't think there is any question about the origin, regardless of patents or trademarks.

We are putting that trademark round hole on the blade of every knife we make, folders and fixed blades, and on the handle of every balisong we make.

Regarding "the wheel", it is my belief tha one person invented / designed that as well (Mr. Wheel :p ) No doubt before patents and trademarks were "invented".

sal
 
yablanowitz said:
If that sounds excessively harsh, I'm sorry. There is an old Chinese proverb that says: "The truth doesn't have to be nice, just true".
Click to expand...

This is absolutley the truth!

Unfortunately, as Sal has said, having others run with a concept and benifit from it is frustrating, but it's also the truth and inevitable.

Other inventions through the years have gone through the patent process and been copied after expiration. But if you are able to lock out the rest of the world from using it by a legal trademark, more power to you. :)
 
As I and others have noted, the patent and the trademark are distinct things. The oval holes Benchmade has used, the Byrd comet hole, the oddly shaped holes that Frost uses, all these and more were covered under the original patent. That patent has expired, so I have no problem with them.

The trademark deals with one specific iteration of the patent. That particular application was used almost exclusively by Spyderco, to the point that the Jess Horn which did not use it (it used a trapezoid depression which was covered under the patent) is not instantly recognized as a Spyderco.

That is the brand recognition Sal spent over twenty years of his life building. That is what others are seeking to cash in on. That is the part I have a problem with.
 
ClintB said:
This is absolutley the truth!

Unfortunately, as Sal has said, having others run with a concept and benifit from it is frustrating, but it's also the truth and inevitable.

Other inventions through the years have gone through the patent process and been copied after expiration. But if you are able to lock out the rest of the world from using it by a legal trademark, more power to you. :)
Click to expand...

Hi ClintB,

It has been out experience (with more than 90 patents and trademarks) that patents are more often than not copied long before the patent process is expired, through loopholes and lawyers. "Locking out the rest of world" is obviously not possible, even with legal trademarks.

sal
 
Other inventors also spent many years on designs and then patented them.

What a great idea the folding knife was! To bad that inventor was not able to trademark the folding knife. I'd bet there was a patent though.

Think of all the companies taking advantage of that idea. Just where would all the knife companies be now if they were not able to use that great idea?
 
ClintB said:
Other inventors also spent many years on designs and then patented them.

What a great idea the folding knife was! To bad that inventor was not able to trademark the folding knife. I'd bet there was a patent though.

Think of all the companies taking advantage of that idea. Just where would all the knife companies be now if they were not able to use that great idea?
Click to expand...

How do you know it wasn't trademarked? It could have been patented and trademarked and fallen victim to illegal copying anyway :rolleyes:

For all I know, the originator of the folding knife could have been the exclusive maker of them for the rest of his life.

Since as far as I know, the folding knife was invented before there were patents and trademark registration, I doubt that either apply in this case.

I suppose Sal should be flattered that you consider his Spyderhole to be an invention on a level with the wheel and the folding knife, and that it is such a vital part of modern knife design that it should be public domain. I, however, disagree with that.

I suppose "it's also the truth and inevitable" that some people would rather steal than work for a living. That doesn't make it either legal or right to steal.
 
It's just a hole. :rolleyes:

I'll now bow out of this quagmire since I have no dog in this fight. It's just an opinion.
 
Hi Clint,

I respect your opinion. I just do not agree with it.

You probably think me a fool for giving Emerson knives credit and royalties for their wave.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
You probably think me a fool for giving Emerson knives credit and royalties for their wave.

sal
Click to expand...

Not at all, Sal. I'm sure you are doing what you feel is right and legal.:thumbup:

I have nothing against Spyderco, I own several. I don't know the legalities of the issue and that's not what I base my opinion on. I suppose I would feel differently if I had drilled that hole! ;)
 
yablanowitz said:
Exactly the problem. It isn't JUST a hole, it is a registered trademark. It is THE Spyderhole! (accept no substitutes :D)
Click to expand...


OK, so I can't just walk away from this!:D

The only thing that makes that hole any different from another hole is that it's drilled in a Spyderco knife.

And sorry, I will accept substitutes. I own a killer Skirmish!:eek:
 
ClintB said:
OK, so I can't just walk away from this!:D

The only thing that makes that hole any different from another hole is that it's drilled in a Spyderco knife.

And sorry, I will accept substitutes. I own a killer Skirmish!:eek:
Click to expand...

I won't post again in this thread, but I just had to...

Can you name another company that put the hole in the knife before Sal did? Sal was the one that came up with the concept, thus Spyderco gets credit for it.

Forget about the patent or trademarks if you want, but don't pretend like they had Spyderholes in blades before Sal did invented it.

Edited to say: Glad you like your Skirmish. Acknowledging the inventor doesn't take away or add to the quality of the knife. Just the integrity of the person that made (the knife).
 
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