Tick Protocol

[modalnot]

In your experience, what are the top three repellants? (I like top three lists, that way I am sure to find at least one. )



1. First line of defense for me is the lowly garlic pill available from GNC and other places like GNC. They are crushable, relatively heat-stable little gel caps. They must stink, they must make your breath stink, they must make you belch garlic, I am NOT recommending "Garlique" pills like Larry King peddled for years as those are specifically designed so that your breath won't stink from them, so they are "friendly" to the consumer. You want the extremely unfriendly garlic pills.

Besides the stink, any other side effects of that much garlic. Gastro intestinal maybe ?

Also I ddnt notice anybody mentioning Permethrin which is sprayed on clothing and lasts a couple of weeks. Deet is effective for a few hours.

I have always been told to shower with lots of soap. . Dont know if thats BS and somebody was politely telling me i stink. But so far so good.

 

[akennedy73]

Brian,

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Only taking a single dose of an antibiotic could cause problems later on and be unrelated to the Lyme Disease infection which the single dose could have very well eradicated. The improper use of antibiotics, prescribing them to shut patients up because they "want something" for a cold or flu with no bacterial infection present and patients improperly using antibiotics by not finishing courses/runs of antibiotics are both apparently causing these "superbugs" like MRSA. Coupled with beancounting hospital administrators who seem hell bent on employing people to clean hospitals who have no firm grasp of cleanliness.

I understand what your saying but can't address it directly as I'm not an expert or medically qualified to comment. Perhaps 200mg isn't the same as not finishing a course since it amounts to only a day or two worth of dosage - so it's barely beginning a course rather than finishing it. I'm just not sure what the rationale is.

I only know that taking 200mg is now considered appropriate when bitten by a tick which is suspected to carry Lyme's. I can only guess it's a cost/benefit analysis - the benefit of preventing Lyme's outweighs the cost of a bunch of people single dosing 200mg of doxy. Lyme's is a serious disease - it's a spirochete bacteria just like syphylis and it's sets up in anaerobic parts of the body (joints and neurons) which makes it very difficult to root out once established. Besides aches and fatigue it also has serious neurological consequences. If you know someone with Lyme's then you're familiar with how hellish it can make your life. Some people don't seem to undergo the really bad adverse effects - but those that do really suffer.

I'm not one to take antibiotics just cause I'm sick - even a serious infection from a scrape has got to go a long way before I'm willing to start taking antibiotics. I'll let my natural defenses do their work before I resort to antibiotics. But Lyme's is different, at least for me and the way I look at it.

It's just not to be messed around with IMO - I carry doxy as part of my FAK when I go into the field. Tick bite - pop two and don't even bother calling the doc in the mornin' :thumbup:

 

[Rob_G]

We are currently treating our daughter for Lyme. Caught early. Vector was a spider, likely a wolf spider, as one was found and dispatched later. Unfortunately, the carcass was not saved for disease verification.

The envenomation and additional infection, causing a 3 cm diam painful and itchy wound, was our primary concern - we didn't even think Lyme yet. With no response after four doses of antibiotic, worsening wound (which was expected due to venom), a rising fever, and a bullseye rash forming out to 6 cm (huh?), we went in again, where doxycycline was given after a diagnosis of Lyme was made, with a tremendous positive response.

After a few days, the bullseye rash continued it's spread and dissipation, just a little faster than I would have anticipated. The 3 cm wound necrotized slightly (looked like a purple/black magic marker line was drawn as a ring around the wound site), blistered, popped and is reforming new skin. Our daughter is on a three week course of Augmentin to combat both Lyme and the infected wound - which she is responding well to.

First Lyme titer came back neg, which was expected because it was so soon after the bite. Repeat in August. If that and subsequent titers come back neg, oh well - we all saw a bulls eye rash come out of an infected spider bite wound.

A neighbor of my parents witnessed a spider bite his arm and progress to Lyme, with the rash centering at that spot. I've researched some and found supporting evidence of it. The pediatrician was a little bit of a hard sell, they generally don't like to admit that anything but a deer tick can carry, but he agreed that the symptoms and reports and everything we looked at added up. It's also hotly debated whether Lyme goes into remission and flares up or if you treat it, Lyme is done and you can only have problems via another bite. Our dog has chronic Lyme issues, so we get to but heads with the vets too.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

We are currently treating our daughter for Lyme. Caught early. Vector was a spider, likely a wolf spider, as one was found and dispatched later. Unfortunately, the carcass was not saved for disease verification.

The envenomation and additional infection, causing a 3 cm diam painful and itchy wound, was our primary concern - we didn't even think Lyme yet. With no response after four doses of antibiotic, worsening wound (which was expected due to venom), a rising fever, and a bullseye rash forming out to 6 cm (huh?), we went in again, where doxycycline was given after a diagnosis of Lyme was made, with a tremendous positive response.

After a few days, the bullseye rash continued it's spread and dissipation, just a little faster than I would have anticipated. The 3 cm wound necrotized slightly (looked like a purple/black magic marker line was drawn as a ring around the wound site), blistered, popped and is reforming new skin. Our daughter is on a three week course of Augmentin to combat both Lyme and the infected wound - which she is responding well to.

First Lyme titer came back neg, which was expected because it was so soon after the bite. Repeat in August. If that and subsequent titers come back neg, oh well - we all saw a bulls eye rash come out of an infected spider bite wound.

A neighbor of my parents witnessed a spider bite his arm and progress to Lyme, with the rash centering at that spot. I've researched some and found supporting evidence of it. The pediatrician was a little bit of a hard sell, they generally don't like to admit that anything but a deer tick can carry, but he agreed that the symptoms and reports and everything we looked at added up. It's also hotly debated whether Lyme goes into remission and flares up or if you treat it, Lyme is done and you can only have problems via another bite. Our dog has chronic Lyme issues, so we get to but heads with the vets too.

I have yet to see any references to Lyme being spread by anything other than Ixodes spp. (scapularis and pacificus) ticks. Do you have any links?

Doc

 

[Sharp Eye]

I usually try to wear light colored clothing..I use deet all exposed skin(at least 20%)...other than my face.. and a few inched under the clothing.. where possibly entry points are...( around the ankles, the sleeves, the waistband)(on my hat and collar) I try to avoid areas that look particularly "ticky" but that's not often possible...I do a quick precursory check when I finish my outing, than when I get home I shower and have my wife do a thorough check..

Also I try to avoid game trails.
Last time I went on a game trail in the local park, I found 6 deer ticks on my clothing.

 

[gadgetgeek]

I think the theory with the one shot dose is precisely that the bug is still vulnerable. bacteria in the blood stream are easiest to treat, before they attach the cells that aren't reached as well. Like why you worry about tetanus in your foot, but not say, on your finger. MRSA is a nasty bug that we've been brewing for decades, and it maybe that the doxy is so effective that your body can kill the rest of the lyme, where as with the SA, without sterilizing your skin, you still have, and slowly the resistant variant becomes the predominant one. As well as people not finishing their meds, because they feel better, which allows the slightly stronger bacteria to grow again. kill em all and none of them get resistant. With something like lyme, I'd suspect that there is more than just a "shutup" pill involved, not when they could tell you to take a full course every time, then you'd be spending a lot more!

 

[luckykitty]

I try to wear long trousers tucked in socks, brush them off once in a while, and once home closely inspect clothing and myself. Haven't found a tick on my skin in a long while.
The cats keep getting ticks, and the repellents only work in the first few days, if at all. During spring and summer I give my cats yeast in tablet form. They actually like them, and it changes their smell a little, without the yeast I have one or two ticks a day per cat, with yeast (after some days taking it) its like a tick a week per cat.

______________
RAT Pack #28

 

[brianNH]

Brian,

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Only taking a single dose of an antibiotic could cause problems later on and be unrelated to the Lyme Disease infection which the single dose could have very well eradicated. The improper use of antibiotics, prescribing them to shut patients up because they "want something" for a cold or flu with no bacterial infection present and patients improperly using antibiotics by not finishing courses/runs of antibiotics are both apparently causing these "superbugs" like MRSA. Coupled with beancounting hospital administrators who seem hell bent on employing people to clean hospitals who have no firm grasp of cleanliness.

I think I do, I'm just not sure what the answer is. Aparently, the medical community has decided the benefits of a single dose of antibiotics to prevent Lyme at the early stages outweighs the risks. This is probably another one of those things that we wont know for another 10 or 20 years, of course, after it's too late.

 

[Big Mike]

The time I contracted Lyme disease, I suspect it was several bites from an “Inch Worm” type caterpillar.

It had fallen down the back of my shirt while doing some tree work, after several sharp pains on my back I removed my shirt to find the little bugger.

Though I live in a high tick area, and do find a tick on myself now and then, I had no known tick bites leading up to my Lyme problem.

My Doctor found this interesting, but would not speculate on whether I could get the disease in this manor.

At least with a tick you seem to have a widow of opportunity to remove the creature before getting infected, with a caterpillar or spider bite the transfer mechanism must be different.

Just some food for thought.

 

[milani74]

Wow. I never thought Lyme disease was so common. I took a 2 hour hike last week in the woods behind my house and removed no less than 15 deer ticks off of my clothes. Came home and found one on my back side digging in; so I pulled it off.
Flu like symptoms seem very vague to me. What exactly are you looking for besides a rash and possible fever? Are we talking throwing up or diarrhea?

 

[mikeal]

I just got a Tick Key. Has anyone ever used one?

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

I usually try to wear light colored cltjimg..I use deet all exposed skin...other than my face.. and a few inched under the clothing.. where possibly entry points are...( around the ankles, the sleeves, the waistband) I try to avoid areas that look particularly "ticky" but that's not often possible...I do a quick precursory check when I finish my outing, than when I get home I shower and have my wife do a thorough check..its become a tradition..in fact sometimes I just got to he woods so I can get checked later.. LOL

I do that too!, but it's a bit of a long drive to Riley's house

 

[jeff_c]

Interesting design!

I just got a Tick Key. Has anyone ever used one?

 

[Don M]

I use the Pro-Tick Remedy. I see lots of ticks around here, and I have one of the Pro-Tick tools in every first aid kit. They work.

http://www.rei.com/product/407279

 

[okbohn]

Our tick protocol is to release chickens into the area first.

Our neighbors have NO ticks and NO chiggers along with fat chickens.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think I do, I'm just not sure what the answer is. Aparently, the medical community has decided the benefits of a single dose of antibiotics to prevent Lyme at the early stages outweighs the risks. This is probably another one of those things that we wont know for another 10 or 20 years, of course, after it's too late.

I am not questioning the fact that a single dose of Doxy @ 200mg will kill the possibility of Lyme, I'm saying you should take the whole run!

As far as what the doctors are saying, they had a big hand along with hospital bean counters in creating superbugs by Rx-ing the antibiotics out willy-nilly to shut people up so I wouldn't necessarily take their edvice on this issue either. I'd find the appropriate run of Doxy for other infections it is Rx'd for along with your body weight and I'd take that.

The spider-bite angle is interesting. Wolfies are hunters and they primarily hunt at night. I got nailed by one lying on the futon in the middle of the night and he sat up on the arm rest looking at me. I guess he was waiting for me to keel over so he could do nefarious spider things to me. I killed him.

The bite developed into a small pimple like thing that didn't ulcerate like you see with Recluses. It took forever to heal where other cuts and scrapes and stuff healed right up during the same time.

But...when you get nailed by a spider and you get the bull's-eye, that's not necessarily LYME DISEASE, that's probably just our old enemy the Brown Recluse as I also got bit by one of them on the knee a few months back and that one was a bitch and took almost two months to fully heal. That red ring is that venom killing flesh and you get pain everywhere up and down the limb, it SUCKED.

 

[HikingMano]

I just got a Tick Key. Has anyone ever used one?

I have one, but thankfully haven't had to use it yet. The design looked pretty sound to me though, easier than pulling off with sharp tweezers. The only thing you have to remember is how to orient the key relative to the tick.

ETA: I still carry Uncle Bill's Silver Grippers though, in case I find a really small tick or something.

 

[Don Rearic]

Looks like something that should possibly join the ranks of the P-38 CO, Photon, BSA Hot Spark and sharpened Ti Dog Tag as must have items.

 

[kvaughn]

As you're in Ct. you can take it to your local health dept and they will send it in to be tested free.--KV

 

[HikingMano]

Lemme contribute some info on the Antibiotics and Lyme thing:

ANTIBIOTIC PROPHYLAXIS

In many areas of the United States, tick bites are extremely common. B burgdorferi is endemic in New England, the mid-Atlantic states, Minnesota, and Wisconsin. In these areas, the risk of infection after a prolonged bite can be high (10%-25%).23,24 Risk of infection is much lower in the southern and western United States. Furthermore, there is no risk of transmission of B burgdorferi from an unengorged tick because the spirochetes require up to 36 hours after a bite to migrate from the tick gut to the salivary glands.25-27 Because of these factors, routine antibiotic prophylaxis is not recommended. However, if an engorged Ixodes tick has been removed from a patient in an endemic area (local rate of infection of ticks with B burgdorferi ≥20%), or if the tick has been attached for at least 36 hours, a single 200-mg oral dose of doxycycline can be administered within 72 hours after removal of the tick for prophylaxis against Lyme disease.2,24 Prophylaxis is generally unnecessary after an I pacificus bite unless the local rate of infection with B burgdorferi is 20% or greater.2

No prophylactic treatments can be recommended for tick bites in children and pregnant women. Doxycycline is contraindicated in pregnant and nursing women and in children younger than 8 years. Amoxicillin has been shown to be effective against B burgdorferi in clinical trials of patients with Lyme disease28,29; however, no trials have shown that a single dose or shortened course of amoxicillin is effective as a prophylactic treatment. Therefore, a full 10- to 14-day treatment would be necessary but is not recommended for prophylaxis because of the high frequency of associated rash and other reactions. In most cases, those with confirmed bites who are unable to take doxycycline should be observed for the development of erythema migrans or other clinical manifestations of Lyme disease.

Mayo Clinic Proceedings
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/83/5/566.long

For prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite, routine use of antimicrobial prophylaxis or serologic testing is not recommended (E‐III). A single dose of doxycycline may be offered to adult patients (200 mg dose) and to children 8 years of age (4 mg/kg up to a maximum dose of 200 mg) (B‐I) when all of the following circumstances exist: (a) the attached tick can be reliably identified as an adult or nymphal I. scapularis tick that is estimated to have been attached for 36 h on the basis of the degree of engorgement of the tick with blood or of certainty about the time of exposure to the tick; (b) prophylaxis can be started within 72 h of the time that the tick was removed; (c) ecologic information indicates that the local rate of infection of these ticks with B. burgdorferi is 20%; and (d) doxycycline treatment is not contraindicated. The time limit of 72 h is suggested because of the absence of data on the efficacy of chemoprophylaxis for tick bites following tick removal after longer time intervals. Infection of 20% of ticks with B. burgdorferi generally occurs in parts of New England, in parts of the mid‐Atlantic States, and in parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin, but not in most other locations in the United States. Whether use of antibiotic prophylaxis after a tick bite will reduce the incidence of HGA or babesiosis is unknown.

Doxycycline is relatively contraindicated in pregnant women and children <8 years old. The panel does not believe that amoxicillin should be substituted for doxycycline in persons for whom doxycycline prophylaxis is contraindicated because of the absence of data on an effective short&#8208;course regimen for prophylaxis, the likely need for a multiday regimen (and its associated adverse effects), the excellent efficacy of antibiotic treatment of Lyme disease if infection were to develop, and the extremely low risk that a person with a recognized bite will develop a serious complication of Lyme disease (D&#8208;III).

Prophylaxis after I. pacificus bites is generally not necessary, because rates of infection with B. burgdorferi in these ticks are low in almost the entire region in which the tick is endemic. However, if a higher infection rate were documented in specific local areas (20%), prophylaxis with single&#8208;dose doxycycline would be justified if the other criteria mentioned above are met.

To prescribe antibiotic prophylaxis selectively to prevent Lyme disease, health care practitioners in areas of endemicity should learn to identify I. scapularis ticks, including its stages (figure 1), and to differentiate ticks that are at least partially engorged with blood (figure 2A and 2B) (A&#8208;III). Testing of ticks for tickborne infectious agents is not recommended, except in research studies (D&#8208;II).

Clinical Infectious Diseases
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/508667



And I think this is the original NEJM paper on Prophylaxis with doxycycline:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/345/2/79?ijkey=9ec1fc68bb4f4bbda2f20337a46fcd5aad778967


Don't have time to really dig now, and sorry for not parsing down the papers but in general it seems that unless very specific conditions are met, prophylactic antibiotic administration isn't recommended. I'll dig more later, as I don't know a ton about this subject myself but am very interested. I can email PDFs for those who can't get them.


ETA- Emphasis in quotes are mine.

ETA2-
Terms:
Ixodes pacificus - West Coast Tick
Ixodes scapularis - East Coast and Midwest Tick
Borrelia burgdorferi - Bacteria transmitted by the ticks that causes Lyme Disease
Babesiosis and Human Granulocytic Anaplasmosis (HGA) - other diseases cause by pathogens transmitted by Ixodes ticks.