Tiem to hold our breath, cross our fingers and pray

DannyinJapan

DannyinJapan

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,594
Well, the Jews have left the Gaza Strip. (or are on the way out as we speak)
This day, which we thought would never come, will mark the beginning of the future of the state of Palestine and the future of the world, as the whole of the Arab world seems to be controlled by what happens in this little piece of desert.
If the Palestinians and the others who occupy the new all-Palestinian Palestine somehow allow the state of Israel to be attacked, we can pretty much expect World War Three to begin in earnest, as the Isrealis have given as much as they will and have promised the harshest possible punishment on Palestine.
Either this is the beginning of peace, or the beginning of Hell.
Im not willing to bet a penny on either outcome.
I really feel blind when I try to see the future of this particular scene.

Our only chance is to redefine ourselves, in my opinion. The founding fathers were geniuses when they pushed the idea of separation of church and state. They may not have realized the importance of that idea. Dear God, how could they?
I submit that we must go one step further.
We must maintain the separation of church and culture and state.

Over here in Japan, they have this word "tradition.'
(its english of course)
When they say tradition, they mean something that you have to do. you're not legally bound to do it and its not religious, but EVERYBODY will be upset if you dont do it. Like taking your shoes off when you go into someone's house or school. Or letting your boss tell you that you cant drive a car because he doesnt want to be embarrassed if you get caught DUI.

Does anyone really believe that God gave a certain part of the desert to the Jewish people? Even if he did, is it more imprtant to live there knowing that it is going to cause blood to flow and flow?

How can anyone, in this day and age, standup and support a politician whose platform is "death to Israel and to the great satan, the USA" ?
Dear God! This is the kind of thing one expects from a Conan movie, not 21st century Earth.

It's time for the human race to grow up. We are all immigrants from Africa.

Im not sure what the point of my thread is, but I know that something big is happening in the Gaza strip and I think we all ought to pay attention and lend our support if there is any way to do it.
The future of the world is at stake.
 
Only time will reveal what will happen. In the meantime we owe it to our familys and ourselves to make some kind of survival preps. We have alreadydone so in our house.

Ice
 
The guano should be hitting the rotating blades in the very near future. The arab nations are unlikely to allow Israel any land at all. Get preps and get right with (your) God. I am not brave enough to address the bible prophecy aspects alluded to in your post...that would start a "dust-up"...lol. Hope I can get a proper hair rolling convex edge on my khukuris before all the fun begins. :eek:

Jeff
 
What will be will be. We all knew this was coming and in our hearts know were it will lead. Lines are drawn, choose your side and hang on. This mistake will just quicken things. We live in scary , but exciting times. Just love and take care of your families and always do the right thing. The rest will come out in the wash.
Terry
 
Love the Deity, and kill one another in It's name.

Love the Deity, and teach hate.

I just don't get it.

Count me out.


Ad Astra :thumbdn:
 
It's not neccesary to believe or disbelieve whether or not God gave the Hebrews land. What is important is that Israel has put it's money where its mouth is. After this, no excuses for Palistinians.

I'm sadly predicting the Palistinian's will take this and want more. Want all.
But one day the Berlin Wall fell and I was surprised and delighted that God can be graceful and kind. Miracles do happen.


munk
 
Amen Munk. Let's pray that they (everyone) can forgive and move on. It is not just about the land anymore, but all the blood that has been spilled.
 
munk said:
. . . I'm sadly predicting the Palistinians will take this and want more. Want all.
Click to expand...

I agree; it's letting the camel get it's nose under the tent flap. Jews, Christians, and Moslems all have religious-based claims to Jerusalem. I too fear that it won't stop, EVER, because of this.

Noah
 
I hope it works out for the Israelis and Palestinians.

Gaza is small potatos. The real test will be the West Bank, then Jerusalem, and THEN the right of return.

As I recall it was the right of return that scuttled the negotiations between Arafat and Barak back when Clinton was trying to broker something. I believe even back then Barak had the settlements on the table.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

On one hand it is only fair that the Israelis give the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians. I say give it to them rather than give it back since it was never theirs in the first place. West Bank was part of Jordan? Gaza was part of Egypt? I'm not good at the history. On the other hand in another way they took that land in a war that they didn't start so part of me says if you start a war with someone and they take your land in it they won it fair and square.

However whether it is fair or not they will never have a HOPE of peace as long as they occupy it.

The right of return to me is something that Israel can never agree to. I mean maybe they can pay some sort of compensation to the people, but Israel is a democracy, and if the numbers of Palestinians in the country outnumber the number of jews then there will no longer be an Israel.

HOWEVER, I kind worry that as long as Israel exsists no middle thing will ever be enough to stop the violence. The big thing is population. In Israel the birth rate is similar to a Western Country. In the West Bank and Gaza the birth rate is thru the roof. With the occupied territories with little prosperity this means plenty of young folks with nothing to do but become terrorists.

Now the Arab countries, who seem to sympathize so much with the Palestinians could go in there and spend some money and give them an economy. But that would give them something to LIVE for. I don't believe the Arabs care that much about the Palestinians really. If they really identified with their cause then why is nobody pimping for a Kurdish state? Their plight is similar. They sympathize with the Palestinians because they hate the Jews, and want to use the Palestinians as a proxy army to fight the Jews.

Anyway, maybe they will all surprise me and work it out, but I predict more conflict and those prosperous settlements with businesses that are being closed? The Palestinians will turn them into ghettos inside of 5 years.
 
The Arab nations haven't helped the Palistinians, though some supply them with arms so they can kill Jews. No land, though, no food when they were dying.

Hollow is absolutely correct about the right of return. I don't believe anyone has ever seriously considered that a negotiable item. Camp David had everything the Palistinians asked for, and it lost a Israeli Prime minister his job for even offering it. But that was Arafat for Palistine then; a horrible guy, and now we have a chance for peace with new leadership, if they can get all the waring factions together. It doesn't help that an entire generation has been filled with hate and lies about the West and the US, with an enlightened European press looking the other way because moral relativism is King.

Ah. I'm not saying anything new here. The land issue comes up over and over again; whose land is it? It doesn't just happen in the Middle East as these arguments are everywhere. Historically, the land belongs to whoever happens to be sitting on it at the time. Like a game of musical chairs, we've recently stopped the swapping and stealing, the music's over and where you were is what you get. There's nothing fair about any of it. There is no fair. 50 years ago plopping modern Israel on the map of the world was cute. But I have to remind myself, at the time "We" did it because we thought it was right. In a world where everybody has a claim, it's hard to find right. It's not evil that we tried, and men will strive to do this to the best of their ability whether or not the guiding force is God or ADM.



munk
 
This is an appeasment move on the part of Israel and it will not work. They are trading land for 'security' but as has been mentioned before, the Palestinians will not be happy while Israel continues to exist...the extremists will be back, probably in fairly short order, demanding more land and concessions and blowing people up. Appeasment won't work because it will be seen as weakness and weakness should be exploited.....Unfortunately, I'm not an optimistic on this one.
 
Theirs been enough war,death and mans inhumaity to man.
I say we need to all get along.

Because none of us are perfect :(
 
mrtgbnkr said:
This is an appeasment move on the part of Israel and it will not work. They are trading land for 'security' but as has been mentioned before, the Palestinians will not be happy while Israel continues to exist...the extremists will be back, probably in fairly short order, demanding more land and concessions and blowing people up. Appeasment won't work because it will be seen as weakness and weakness should be exploited.....Unfortunately, I'm not an optimistic on this one.
Click to expand...

DITTO-Just wait til the Palestinians have their own nukes. Then you will see the middle east reduced to ashes! :mad:
 
nor is it just trying to do right.....it is a calculated move to clear some of the muddy water that Israel has been sunk in for some time, particularly the world media with their own slanted takes on the issues....now, when the inevitable attacks come, the "rules of engagement" will be clear when the Israelis respond....it is that simple....no more grey area, no more fog....and I think tieing all the problems in the world and that area in particular to just Israel is a very gross oversimplification of a much larger clash of culture, values, religion, and mainly power struggle for just who will end up calling the shots in the Muslim world....
 
This is not appeasement. It is geopolitical maneuvering. Sharon has been open and above board from the start on why he chose this kind of disengagement.

With Arafat in power, the Arabs were obviously not going to agree to any end of the conflict, on any terms but the destruction of Israel. Now that Arafat is dead, his successors pretend they are willing to end the conflict on the basis of a two-state solution. This is untrue. They havent taken the first step to implement their part of the deal.

What they need to do, to convince Israel of their good intentions, is to eliminate any military power in areas under their control, except for that of the Palestinian Authority. Israel would be wasting its time bargaining with a Palestinian Authority that does not possess a monopoly of armed might.

Since the Arabs were not negotiating in good faith, and the situation was grim, with an ongoing uprising that caused constant death and destruction, Sharon proposed to separate the two peoples.

The first stage would be to evacuate all Israeli presence from the Gaza Strip. A few thousand Israelis cost almost that many troops to maintain them, and under no conceiveable negotiated agreement would Israel hold onto any territory in Gaza eventually anyway.

The second stage would be to consolidate the Israeli presence in Judea and Samaria along the old Green Line. This would reduce Arab territory by that land already more densely inhabited by Israelis than Gaza was. This is the land that is being marked off by the separation fence.

By the way, all of Gaza has always been marked off by a separation fence of its own, which is what makes this disengagement so neat for the Israelis.

Once the fence encloses the Israeli land in Judea and Samaria, effectively making it part of Israel proper, and Palestinian Arab workers are barred from jobs in Israel, the Palestinian Authority will have a choice: organize and administer their territory as a nascent state, or dissolve into chaos. Oh, wait, they have already dissolved ... that's their modus operandi ...

There was never a Palestinian people. Various Muslim populations joined Christian Arabs in the Holy Land, most considering themselves part of Syria. After the founding of the State of Israel, and the serial defeats of all Arab efforts to destroy it, the "Palestinian people" were created as cannon-fodder for the ongoing war of destruction of Israel.

As their chance of success got worse (even Egypt and Jordan gave in and signed formal peace treaties) the Palestinian project became increasingly hysterical and radical. They are now no longer Muslim or Christian, secular or religious. They are a death cult. Their culture is based on frustration, and oriented towards failure.

So Sharon is pulling out of isolated Israeli enclaves and consolidating his population behind barriers to keep the Arabs out. It's that simple.

At the founding of the State of Israel in 1948, David Ben-Gurion was asked how the tiny nation could possibly survive the impending onslaught by the Arab armies. He answered that Israel would prevail by a miracle or by natural means: by natural means meant that God would come down as he always did, to save us. Or this time we would be saved by a miracle: we would do it ourselves.

The Talmud tells us: if a man rises up to strike you, strike him first.​
 
Not all of the Arab-Israeli wars were victories for the Israelis.
In fact, the last big one (I think it was 76) the Arab side was getting pretty close to winning and the Israelis threatened to use their nukes.
The US got involved and persuaded Egypt to stop the war.
At that point, Egypt, the leaders of the Arab world, were seen as "sellouts" to the Americans and lost their power. Iraq took over as the leaders, the "big men" of the tribe , so to speak.
You all know how well Iraq has done.
Still, without leadership, things only got worse. Arafat became the only leader they had, and right now, there is a vacuum of leadership.
Nobody wants the bin Laden types to fill that role, but what other cadidates stand out?
Apparently the Arab world will nto accept any leader who refuses to use the "death to israel and the USA" in his party platform.
this is a matter of education, in my opinion. In the same way that Soviet Communism appealed to the uneducated masses of the third world, so does the "death cult" version of Militant Islamism.
(Not in any way to be confused with true Islam)

They need a leader, a smart, responsible, respectable leader.
They havent really had one since Sadat.
 
A lot of good posts here...

I always pray "In wrath, remember mercy..."

I always ask for more time to get ready.

I've wasted a lot of time...

"The wise man seeth the trouble come, and hideth himself..."

Tom
 
Danny,

I was going to stay out of this, as I don't have any great opinions or solutions, but your history here is a bit weak. You must be referring to the war of 1973-1974.....and your facts do not match the history.

Here is an "infoplease" on the subject.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0856669.html

Here it is for the next one in 1982.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0856670.html

I think bringing "nukes" and who was looked out as "sellouts"....only throws lighter fluid on an already bad situation.

Let's just sit back for a while and see if these guys (Arabs and Israeli's)...can just get along....just a little bit.

I agree with the rest of your post :p
 
Not all of the Arab-Israeli wars were victories for the Israelis.
In fact, the last big one (I think it was 76) the Arab side was getting pretty close to winning and the Israelis threatened to use their nukes.
The US got involved and persuaded Egypt to stop the war.

The Arab side was pretty close to total destruction, when the UN Security Council called for a cease-fire. Syria was pushed back out of the Golan and Egypt lost the entire Sinai Peninsula.

War of 1973

The 1973 Yom Kippur War began when Egypt and Syria launched a surprise joint attack in the Sinai and Golan Heights. The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "hinge" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old cease-fire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

They need a leader, a smart, responsible, respectable leader.
They havent really had one since Sadat.

They've had a few. They ignore them. Hussein of Jordan was OK, after a shaky start. There are North African and Gulf states that actually have diplomatic relations with Israel, some open, some less obvious.
 
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