Tiem to hold our breath, cross our fingers and pray

Im not going to anybodys internet history links.
I never try to learn history from the internet if I can help it.
I admit my history of the dates may be off, but I do remember the basic facts.
I stand by my post.
in the 1948 declaration war, Israel was very nearly wiped out. That war was only won by a few inches. Israel lost 1% of her total population!
Granted, there seems to be more professors of the Middle Eastern conflict who come from Arab background than Israeli (3 out of 4 I studied under were Arabic PhDs.)
That may have biased their opinions, but we used books.
Real, actual books.
 
Welp, NPR reported this morning (18Aug) that Palestinian fighters in the West Bank are crediting the bloody efforts of their noble bretheren in Gaza for the Israeli pullout there, and swear to continue fighting the good fight in the West Bank.

Camel's definitely got his nose under the test flap . . .

Noah
 
Sharon has been open and above board from the start on why he chose this kind of disengagement.

Appeasement, for what ever reason, is a form of surrender. There is nothing about this that will not be used as reinforcemnt of the notion that terrorism works. It doesn't matter what the practical ramifications may be, the poltical reality works against Israel. If I were one of these evicted settlers, I would invest my $150,000-450,000 on a condo in Miami. This is the end of the Israeli State.

n2s
 
IF you're right, N2, I'll call you a genius later on....really. And you are right about so many things!!! But I have to disagree. The modern state of Israel will not be allowed to fall.



munk
 
Just wait til the Israeli's take out the Iranian nuke facilities. (probably with our secret blessing)
Terry
 
Noah Zark said:
Welp, NPR reported this morning (18Aug) that Palestinian fighters in the West Bank are crediting the bloody efforts of their noble bretheren in Gaza for the Israeli pullout there, and swear to continue fighting the good fight in the West Bank.

Camel's definitely got his nose under the test flap . . .

Noah
Click to expand...

They got their head up their #SS! Barak was ready to give up the settlements BEFORE the current uprising was started!

The bottom line really is what Esav was saying about the fact that there really is no legitimate gov't of Palestine with which to negotiate with. It would be kind of like if the Crips and the Bloods controlled all of LA and you tried to negotiate with the mayor of the place to stop the violence :rolleyes:
 
Munk,

I see the surrender of Gaza as equivalent to the French retreat from the Rhineland on March 7, 1936. It is the kind of mistake that ligitimized Hitler's aggressive militarization then, it it will likely lead to a strengthening of terrorist forces now. This is not a good move; nor is the arguement in favor of defensible borders legitimate, as nothing is stopping them from sealing those borders today. I can physically seal off Gaza without politically disowning it and without expropriating the settlers; those 8,000 people would simply be left outside of the main defensive lines - so what? Why give the opposition a victory?

We, the world, are repeating the very steps that led to WWII. What war that we see today is nothing compared to the greater war that is fast building on the horizon. Somehow we have come to expect a dramatic December 7th, 1941; when the reality is that world wars are things that come to be over a period of many years. A wise person would seek to avoid another Pearl Harbor, or another Invasion of Poland; it is better to break the process while it is developing then to clash head on when it finally explodes.

This is the wrong move at the wrong time, not only for Israel, but for all of us.

n2s
 
N2, I've learned a lot of things listening to you over the years. As everyone knows. depsite your humorous name to the contrary, you are very sharp. I agree with everything you've said, except I'm holding onto the promise made by the PM that this is the exception that proves the rule.

God Help Us if you are right.



munk
 
munk said:
I'm holding onto the promise made by the PM that this is the exception that proves the rule.
munk
Click to expand...

I hope so too. I can't see that the policy that was in effect before this was really leading anywhere.
 
skipping over the minor detail that the israeli settlers stole the land from the arabs in the first place, for every settler they remove from gaza they put in 10 in the west bank occupied territories, so again, the israeli's are the net gainers there. building up the resentment that's fueling the palestinians.
 
skipping over the minor detail that the israeli settlers stole the land from the arabs in the first place
Click to expand...

I am not going to defend Israel in particular, but let me suggest that every state that exist today, does so on land which was at some point stolen from someone else. War and conquest are an unfortunate and long standing aspect of humanity. I would love for global peace to break out, but the pesimistic side of me suggest that that will have to wait upon the further evolution and dominance of the cockroach.

n2s
 
Kronckew,

Regardless how Israel was created, it is a fact today, and there is no going back. Israel is there to stay and what we need to do now is figure out how to find peace in a region known for not having any.



munk
 
You know, there really isnt any "tradition" we can look to in terms of how a defeated population should live.
In the past, the defeated population was wiped out. Those who survived became slaves or were adopted into the victorious culture.
There has never been any "defeated but still around and doin stuff" kind of tradition really.This is a new phenomenon, isnt it...

That old fashioned "wipe em all out" theory is why the end of a war meant peace.

What are we supposed to do now ?
 
Interesting thread.

Nothing is going to change over there. I don't believe that land was ever the issue. It's merely an excuse. My opinion, nothing more.

The how's, why's, and therefore's have been adequately laid out by others. No need to repeat them.

Good stuff, Esav.
 
Danny,
Hmmm,seems to me Germany & Japan were defeated!! WW2 remember,they survived "fairly well"! You all better get used to something"PEACE"over there ain't gonna happen!! ISRAEL ain't going to lose
or DISAPPEAR!! NO!! Palist.& ALL the ARAB neighbers can combine & ISRAEL ain't going to lose!NO ,I'm not a Jew I'm a Christian. Guys,these people have been at each others throats for hundreds of yrs.Had a friend over there that was AMAZED! He believed THEY would work things out.He then said,UNREAL,HE was discussing affairs with some Palist.THEY started ,pointing out the LYING,deceit & attacks by Israel(never mentioned theirs).He told me,THEY were angry about things that happened way,way in the past(100yrs.??)but to them it was YESTERDAY!!
THE DUCK!
 
Well, Duck, you're right about Japan and Germany being defeated. (You forgot to mention the Korean war)
But in all of those cases, we were forced to
A. Occupy those countries for years
or
B. Occupy those countries for decades.

If pulling all of your military forces out of the defeated country is how you define "victory" then those wars havent ended yet....

Duck, I know a lot of people believe that the Bible is the word of God and that this means that Israel is a "righteous" invincible country.(and that the Arabs are "evil") You have a right to your beliefs, but let's just say I think peace, real peace, will require us all to put away such thinking.

We have to deal with the situation in a scientific, objective manner. God will not stop the nukes from destroying Tel Aviv or Tehran or New York.
WE have to do it ourselves.
 
"Im not going to anybodys internet history links.
I never try to learn history from the internet if I can help it.
I admit my history of the dates may be off, but I do remember the basic facts.
I stand by my post.
in the 1948 declaration war, Israel was very nearly wiped out. That war was only won by a few inches. Israel lost 1% of her total population"!

Danny....I have no personal agenda (and I don't think you have either)...but, the history of this is important (and certainly contested by each group)...and you are mixing in different dates that have different historical imprints (again, "historically" different depending on who tells the history). But, trusted websites can be a good start in getting the chronology right.

"Information Please is part of Pearson Education, the largest educational publisher in the world and owner of Prentice Hall, Scott Foresman, Addison Wesley Longman, and other distinguished imprints. Pearson also owns the Financial Times and Penguin Putnam publishers". These guys seem OK to me for at least a start.

Peace/out
 
Nick 7;

Thanks for the tip about the web site. Information Please. I could use a handy reference desk.



munk
 
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