Tim Britton: The Full Story?

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Fire_Brand

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I didn't want this to get removed from general discussion and thought it might be too controversial/off topic so I'm posting here.

Does anyone have the full story behind Tim Britton and Kizer?

From what I know the short version is Tim bought made a contract with Kizer to sell some of their designs and have them produce the knives as well. This contract began at Blade 2012 and he failed to fulfill his end of the contract before Blade 2013 but had already started selling the "Tango" as his own "custom hand made knife" <removed W&C only emoticon> . Then when he found out Kizer was going to bring their model to Blade 2013 (as they still legally could do since he didn't own the rights to the design yet) he flipped out and started a smear campaign against Kizer calling them counterfeiters, fakes, crap etc.

As far as I can tell Tim has never come clean, is somehow still selling an entire line up of Kizer knives for nearly $500 a piece and can still be seen around blade forums and selling on reputable websites still claiming these as "hand made USA produced custom knives".

Is this story right? Wrong? What pieces of the story am I missing? If this is right why are people still putting up with this? It seems like he has a reputation for for doing this type of thing and has done it in the past and while I agree that actual Chinese counterfeiters are hurting the US custom market it really is nothing compared to what Tim Britton is (allegedly) doing. Not only is he passing off a Chinese production knife as a custom but he's falsely appealing to the "buy USA made and support real knife makers" which a lot of people do care about. To top it all off he has the audacity to charge custom level prices for his knives which even the Chinese makers don't do. People get angry about counterfeit knives but this makes me absolutely furious because it undermines true custom makers by diluting the standards which the knife community accepts.

So please correct me if I'm wrong, and share your thoughts!


Here are some of my citations:

The thread that most thoroughly addresses the issue:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...NESE-Rip-off-TANGO-Tim-Britton-Beware-!/page3

Finally just look at Tim Britton's posting history
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php/335425-blademaker2
Compared to Kizers:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php/349191-Kizer-Cutlery

A huge difference in the level of professionalism. Kizer never debates or argues once, they just provide fact after fact while Tim just makes generic insults and slings mud.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some users added some pretty good evidence in this thread as well where the compared Kizer models and Tim Britton models and also compared some of his older models to other customs and some knife kits. Pretty damning evidence to me. So follow up question is how much evidence needs to exist before reputable sellers stop carrying his knives and they stop allowing him at knife shows? May as well just stick his booth next to a wild boar and A DAI booths...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1200876-How-does-Tim-Britton-s-knives-compare-to-the-similar-looking-Kizer-s
 
You posted this in the Community forum that is clearly labeled for non-knife discussion. You're also using the "jerkit" emoticon that is labeled as "Whine & Cheese forum only". I'm going to move this to Feedback.

"This forum is intended for non-knife related discussion, announcements of get-togethers, knife show listings, humor, and everyday life. Please read The Community Forum Rules & Guidelines prior to posting in here."
 
My apologies, didn't check the rules before posting and I thought this was far enough from specific knife discussion to warrant the location. Thank you for putting it in the right spot!

Another addition to the thread in the meantime: Tim's knife kit company "Linville Knife & Tool". Not related to his custom knives but it does show his general character and business practices.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/430086-Linville-Knife-amp-Tool-Hi-tech-folder-false-advertising

Also, I didn't mention this in the initial post but I know that this topic has been discussed extensively it just never seems to have been compiled in a way that there is a definitive answer for people to point to. Because any time someone mentions Kizer or Tim in the same thread this argument starts and it always is "threads people remember reading" or "evidence they saw somewhere", just general hearsay. The evidence does seem to be out there but it would be nice to be able to point to one location and have it all compiled there because somehow it still gets debated and I'd like to gather up enough evidence to put it to rest.
 
Also of note is Tim Britton's blatant theft of Shane Sibert's "Pocket Rocket" design, which he was marketing as the "Boomer". If you listen to Gear Geeks Live, Tony (from Everyday Commentary) explains the information he got from the owners of the USN and Shane himself. Apparently Tim Britton is so deluded that he was trying to convince Tony (and apparently is convinced himself) that he was given permission from Shane to make the design. Obviously he was not and was banned immediately.
 
Misanthropia said:
Also of note is Tim Britton's blatant theft of Shane Sibert's "Pocket Rocket" design, which he was marketing as the "Boomer". If you listen to Gear Geeks Live, Tony (from Everyday Commentary) explains the information he got from the owners of the USN and Shane himself. Apparently Tim Britton is so deluded that he was trying to convince Tony (and apparently is convinced himself) that he was given permission from Shane to make the design. Obviously he was not and was banned immediately.
Click to expand...

I know I keep saying this, but it really amazes me that Tim still has any type of respect in the knife community.

Here is the piece from Everyday Commentary you're referring to that is before the review of Kizer Ki3404-3

"The Tim Britton Controversy

I considered not saying anything at all, but we as a group of consumers are pretty smart and want to know where our money is going. If you do even a tiny bit of research on this knife you are going to run into this issue, and in an effort to do my due diligence and bring you the best information possible, I did a lot of research on this issue and I have decided to publish a brief summary here.

Tim Britton claims that the Kizer knives, this one and the larger model that looks the same, are rip offs of his knife the Tango. I do not believe this to be the case. Here is a VERY brief summary of why:

I had planned on addressing the Tim Britton v. Kizer controversy more directly, but the deeper I got the crazier things became. After doing all of that research, weeks, literally weeks, I am convinced that there is nothing to the claim that this is a rip off. Not a single shred of evidence. I emailed with Mr. Britton extensively and gave him an opportunity to make a statement but he has chosen not to do so and he also also would not agree to let me publish his emails (I gave him the opportunity to control exactly what was said, even final edit, so that he could not claim I cherry picked his words, but he turned me down). Most, if not all of the evidence I have that leads me to believe there is nothing to Mr. Britton's claim, ironically, came from emails provided to me by Mr. Britton himself.

Then there is this absolutely damning and indisputable fact--Mr. Britton has a history of ripping off other people's designs and this behavior got him banned from the USN. In that particular instance he ripped off a really great design from Shane Sibert. Mr. Britton even claimed to me, during our long email correspondence, that his copy of the Shane Sibert design was an authorized one. I contacted Mr. Sibert to confirm this (as any responsible person would, right?) here is what Mr. Sibert said:

Hello Anthony,

No, that is a blatant copy/stolen design of mine and he got banned from the USN for it. He continues to sell it claiming it is custom and charges custom prices when it appears to be made in china and he scribes his name on the blade...Fortunately, I have been able to stop dealers from selling it and the knife community has been very aggressive in response to this flaccid plagiarism.

Respectfully,

Shane-

From the USN post a few months ago:


A few months ago a situation arose that was dealt with professionally and promptly by our stellar, concerned administrators. At the time I was told by the individual in question only 2 were made, I naively thought that that was the end of that and shrugged it off and went back to the grinder.

I’m a bit crestfallen as drama is not something I generally subscribed to, and avoid if it can be resolved in a civil matter. But recently it has been brought to my attention that this prickly rash continues to fester. Unfortunately, I now need to necessitate a more forthright public action to raise awareness of this concern as this annoying dilemma may also encompass not only myself but other makers as well.

Now I understand the conundrum of either unintentional or coincidental resemblances in which I generally have no qualms with as it is part of the business; but when it is an almost crude duplicate, not just similar mind you…. but an explicit and malformed facsimile of the original knife which are being produced in quantity without permission and behaving indifferently and shamelessly for gain…. Now my hackles get raised. These appear to be foreign in origin while the perpetrator is claiming them as a custom.

Here is a link to a BladeForums thread where you can see both the Sibert original and the Britton copy.

The bottom line is this--Mr. Britton did not provide me, or anyone I can find on the internet, with evidence that Kizer stole his design and he has a history, a documented history, of stealing designs from others while claiming he was authorized to make such copies. There is tons of information on this in my possession, but it is not worth getting into more than this--the Kizer Ki3404-3 is not a counterfeit of Mr. Britton's Tango (an unauthorized copy purporting to be the original) and there is no evidence to support Mr. Britton's claim that the Ki3404-3 is a rip off of his design (an unauthorized copy not purporting to be the original). I have literally tons of stuff on this, but it becomes so convoluted that it is both unimportant and not worth the effort. If you disagree, feel free to comment below. Again, the standing invitation to Mr. Britton remains open. He can write whatever he wants on the subject and I will publish it UNALTERED. I will then, in a separate post, provide information and context to those claims, but if he wants to, he can have his say complete and without editing. Until that happens, I am going to consider this issue closed."
 
Wow. Last night I was listing to a new podcast called "Modern Neanderthal". I fell asleep, but, as I awoke I caught the Britton story through my foggy mind. I re-listened to the section -and then came here this morning. I guess I'm a sucker . Bought a Tango from Arizona Knives at near $500 a couple years ago.

Of interest, about six months ago I left it in my jeans and it went through the washer and dryer . My wife salvaged the pieces and Tim put it back together for me at no charge within a few weeks. That speaks well of him. Nevertheless , spending $475 on a Chinese knife really pisses me off.

So, that raises some questions. Would one of my Sebenzas or Striders absolutely fall to pieces in a washer (I'm not about to try it ) ? It seemed at the time
 
Fire_Brand said:
I didn't want this to get removed from general discussion and thought it might be too controversial/off topic so I'm posting here.

Does anyone have the full story behind Tim Britton and Kizer?

From what I know the short version is Tim bought made a contract with Kizer to sell some of their designs and have them produce the knives as well. This contract began at Blade 2012 and he failed to fulfill his end of the contract before Blade 2013 but had already started selling the "Tango" as his own "custom hand made knife" <removed W&C only emoticon> . Then when he found out Kizer was going to bring their model to Blade 2013 (as they still legally could do since he didn't own the rights to the design yet) he flipped out and started a smear campaign against Kizer calling them counterfeiters, fakes, crap etc.

As far as I can tell Tim has never come clean, is somehow still selling an entire line up of Kizer knives for nearly $500 a piece and can still be seen around blade forums and selling on reputable websites still claiming these as "hand made USA produced custom knives".

Is this story right? Wrong? What pieces of the story am I missing? If this is right why are people still putting up with this? It seems like he has a reputation for for doing this type of thing and has done it in the past and while I agree that actual Chinese counterfeiters are hurting the US custom market it really is nothing compared to what Tim Britton is (allegedly) doing. Not only is he passing off a Chinese production knife as a custom but he's falsely appealing to the "buy USA made and support real knife makers" which a lot of people do care about. To top it all off he has the audacity to charge custom level prices for his knives which even the Chinese makers don't do. People get angry about counterfeit knives but this makes me absolutely furious because it undermines true custom makers by diluting the standards which the knife community accepts.

So please correct me if I'm wrong, and share your thoughts!


Here are some of my citations:

The thread that most thoroughly addresses the issue:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...NESE-Rip-off-TANGO-Tim-Britton-Beware-!/page3

Finally just look at Tim Britton's posting history
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php/335425-blademaker2
Compared to Kizers:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php/349191-Kizer-Cutlery

A huge difference in the level of professionalism. Kizer never debates or argues once, they just provide fact after fact while Tim just makes generic insults and slings mud.
Click to expand...

SEVERAL BIGGIES you choose to ignore....(1) MY tango was advertised in BLADE 2 years before Kizer came on the scene. They offered me my knives at a BLADE show and were insulted when I refused to buy these ripoffs, and quipped as they walked away: "well somebody will buy them". They were reported to ICE and I was in hopes they would stop by BLADE and pay Kizer a visit...never happened. They explained that they are busy chasing boatloads of Rolexes. Shortly after, I was at a gunshow and BOUGHT Chinese ripoffs of Hinderer, Strider, and Medford. "Dealer" at the show showed me two marked Kizer. Chris Reeves hired an attorney and found these same folks were ripping him off and selling his designs on www.alibabaexpress.com The ripoffs were perfect copies....I have photos that I have shared with numerous folks and would happily share them again. Kizer continues to make knives designed by US makers but are a bit more forthcoming in acknowledging their design source. Steven Rapp, Howard Viele, Tommy McNabb, Travis Daniels and several other less well known makers have spent time in my shop while I am making all sorts of folders. This garbage about me having knives made in CHINA is seemingly a great source of pleasure for a few folks who don't have much else to do with their time than to stir crappola. Reference to Linville Knife and Tool is symbolic....I sold this company 6 years ago. The primary business was pistol grips and remains so. Mind telling us what this has to do with Kizer ? I am busy making knives but did a bit of my own personal research. The dude who owns Kizer (CK) sold ripoffs on alibabaexpress.com using names of employees in his shop so they couldn't be traced to his company. He had one person dedicated to smokescreening and protecting his "image" on forums and they started advertising in BLADE. They offered MY Tango to me for $48 if I'd buy 100. Wonder if they did same for Strider, Medford and Reeves ? In conversations with Hinderer and Reeves and Medford, they agreed the best policy is to ignore the ripoffs. Chris Reeves secured an attorney at one time and finally gave up after spending a few bucks. A friend who does business in China suggests that ripping off designs is part of their culture....they don't seem to worry about intellectual property or patents or copyrights. I don't have time or interest in forums but if anyone is interested in seeing KIZER ripoffs I'll contribute photos or I may even have 2 or 3 ripoffs that I keep in my travel case at shows.....just in case this issue comes up. Need/want info ? Please contact me direct. Thanks.
 
blademaker2 said:
SEVERAL BIGGIES you choose to ignore....(1) MY tango was advertised in BLADE 2 years before Kizer came on the scene. They offered me my knives at a BLADE show and were insulted when I refused to buy these ripoffs, and quipped as they walked away: "well somebody will buy them". They were reported to ICE and I was in hopes they would stop by BLADE and pay Kizer a visit...never happened. They explained that they are busy chasing boatloads of Rolexes. Shortly after, I was at a gunshow and BOUGHT Chinese ripoffs of Hinderer, Strider, and Medford. "Dealer" at the show showed me two marked Kizer. Chris Reeves hired an attorney and found these same folks were ripping him off and selling his designs on www.alibabaexpress.com The ripoffs were perfect copies....I have photos that I have shared with numerous folks and would happily share them again. Kizer continues to make knives designed by US makers but are a bit more forthcoming in acknowledging their design source. Steven Rapp, Howard Viele, Tommy McNabb, Travis Daniels and several other less well known makers have spent time in my shop while I am making all sorts of folders. This garbage about me having knives made in CHINA is seemingly a great source of pleasure for a few folks who don't have much else to do with their time than to stir crappola. Reference to Linville Knife and Tool is symbolic....I sold this company 6 years ago. The primary business was pistol grips and remains so. Mind telling us what this has to do with Kizer ? I am busy making knives but did a bit of my own personal research. The dude who owns Kizer (CK) sold ripoffs on alibabaexpress.com using names of employees in his shop so they couldn't be traced to his company. He had one person dedicated to smokescreening and protecting his "image" on forums and they started advertising in BLADE. They offered MY Tango to me for $48 if I'd buy 100. Wonder if they did same for Strider, Medford and Reeves ? In conversations with Hinderer and Reeves and Medford, they agreed the best policy is to ignore the ripoffs. Chris Reeves secured an attorney at one time and finally gave up after spending a few bucks. A friend who does business in China suggests that ripping off designs is part of their culture....they don't seem to worry about intellectual property or patents or copyrights. I don't have time or interest in forums but if anyone is interested in seeing KIZER ripoffs I'll contribute photos or I may even have 2 or 3 ripoffs that I keep in my travel case at shows.....just in case this issue comes up. Need/want info ? Please contact me direct. Thanks.
Click to expand...

No one believes you.
 
This has been discussed on end.

The facts have been put on the table.....not sure if anymore needs to be said on this subject.....

Facts have a way of being ignored these days.....

Kizer has weighed in with documentation, The Sibert "thing" is obvious, no need for a 3 strike rule.....
 
brancron said:
Kizer claims it debuted the model 12-401 at Blade Show 2012, which always happens in June, if I'm not mistaken. This fact would obviously be very easy to verifiy and I believe Kizer is telling the truth--lying about it would be crazy.

Tim Britton, in OCTOBER of 2012, made the following post on USN "debuting" his Tango: http://www.usualsuspect.net/forums/showthread.php?681778-TANGO-makes-a-debut&highlight=
Click to expand...

Can't read that if you aren't a member....many here aren't. Have a tl;dr version?
 
RevDevil said:
Can't read that if you aren't a member....many here aren't. Have a tl;dr version?
Click to expand...

As of his posting, 10-22-2012, he claims to have just finished up making his first Tango "this weekend" and provides a picture. 10-22-2012 was a Monday, so according to Tim Britton himself, he made his first Tango on 10-20 or 10-21 of 2012, months after Kizer debuted them at Blade Show.

In my opinion the case is closed.
 
RevDevil said:
Can't read that if you aren't a member....many here aren't. Have a tl;dr version?
Click to expand...

That info is available on other sites, not just the USN...
I would post a link, but just Google the appropriate key words and all the info will be there.


Kizer has already shown us this documentation last time a thread like this was started.
I believe Mr. Britton was involved as well, and it was fun times in the GBU.....

Greed is a terrible thing.
 
JR88FAN said:
That info is available on other sites, not just the USN...
I would post a link, but just Google the appropriate key words and all the info will be there.


Kizer has already shown us this documentation last time a thread like this was started.
I believe Mr. Britton was involved as well, and it was fun times in the GBU.....

Greed is a terrible thing.
Click to expand...

Is this documentation available anywhere? I've looked through everything I can and see references to it but no actual documentation. I've also never seen anyone point out the fact that Britton himself claims to have made his first Tango on October 10-21 of 2012 when Kizer debuted it in early June of 2012.
 
brancron said:
As of his posting, 10-22-2012, he claims to have just finished up making his first Tango "this weekend" and provides a picture. 10-22-2012 was a Monday, so according to Tim Britton himself, he made his first Tango on 10-20 or 10-21 of 2012, months after Kizer debuted them at Blade Show.

In my opinion the case is closed.
Click to expand...

The deal between Mr. Britton and Kizer was struck at BS 2012 after Mr. Britton went for a walk to their booth and saw the potential in the knife.

There are signed documents of this deal, as well as, quantity amounts that Mr. Britton would need to purchase to make the deal work.
The deal fell apart when Mr. Britton could not meet his contractual obligations and Kizer decided to release the knife themselves.

If you own a Tango, you own a Kizer with a makers engraved logo for 3X the price....

At least Mr. Britton rebuilt his credibility when he decided to borrow just a little...well a lot actually...from Shane Sibert...
 
brancron said:
Is this documentation available anywhere? I've looked through everything I can and see references to it but no actual documentation. I've also never seen anyone point out the fact that Britton himself claims to have made his first Tango on October 10-21 of 2012 when Kizer debuted it in early June of 2012.
Click to expand...

I will find it, and post it up....

I have a feeling that someone from Kizer will jump on board here soon and clear this up as well...
 
Here's a screenshot for people not on USN:

J7sObtn.jpg
 
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