Timascus

Laredo7mm

Laredo7mm

Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
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So what does "copyrighted" and "patent applied for" mean when concerning Timascus? I would assume the name, Timascus is copyrighted and the proces is patent pending. Would that be correct?

That part I can understand, but the part I am confused about is if I dink around with titanium alloys and get them to weld/fuse (whatever they do) and use it in a knife, can I be held liable?

Just curious, it is some neat looking stuff that I would not be willing to buy or go to court over.:) But i wouldn't mind trying to make some (as dangerous as that may be).

How good of a blade does titanium make as far a tuff, edge holding, sharpening, etc?
 
Copyright pertains to the name, I believe. Patent Pending covers the manufacturing process, and is the same, IIRC, as patented. If you make patern welded titanium, you would be in violation of patent rights.
If you don't want to buy it, why would you be willing to go to the expense and time, not to mention danger, of copying the fruits of someone elses labor, and $$$$? Just curious.
It is not, in it's current make up, suitable for blades. Maybe in the near(?) future. :confused:
 
I am glad you asked that question Mike.

Why would I want to make my own pattern welded titanium? For the same reason I make my own Damascus. I suppose I should not use the name Timascus anymore for copyright violations. :) I like to make my own “stuff”. It gives me a greater sense of accomplishment and satisfaction than buying someone else’s stock. Also, I enjoy trying new things and would much rather make my own knife components than buy them from somebody else.

My intent of making pattern welded titanium would not be for competing with the patent holders, but for my own use. But since I sell knives, I would not be able to incorporate the titanium patterns in knives that would be for sale. Unless, of course, my manufacturing process differs enough from their patented process.

It seems odd that in a craft were holding “trade secrets” is usually frowned upon; this one seems to be embraced and endorsed by many. How would things be if I were to get a TM on the term “Pattern Welding” and then patent my process? That is not realistic for many reasons, but think of how it would be. Or if all of us would patent our HT methods.

To take it one step further, if I were to start patenting the profiles of the blades that I make. Have the lawyers write the claims of the patent broad enough, so that any similar shaped blade would be an infringement of my patent, police all knives being sold, and enforcing my patent rights on those who are in violation. Far fetched? Yes very far fetched, but plausible.

I can understand the original makers of pattern welded titanium intent of seeking patents and copyrights. I have done the same on some of my non knife related endeavors. However, every time I see “timascus” it is accompanied by the patent and copyright statements, which leads me to believe that they are going to enforce their patent on the custom knife makers. This is how I perceive it; however, they may just be doing it to stop main stream competitors from flooding the market. I hope the later is the case.

Hopefully I am not coming across as an A$$ Hole in this post. I am not trying to question anyone’s intent, trying to steal their product, or go into direct competition with them. Also I do not mean to discredit the inventers of “Timascus” in any way. I think the stuff is way cool.

I do think however, that if I make some pattern welded titanium, put it on a hand made knife, sell the knife, and end up in court with a lawsuit for copyright or patent infringements that would be a big bunch of BS.
 
Quote"It seems odd that in a craft were holding “trade secrets” is usually frowned upon; this one seems to be embraced and endorsed by many. How would things be if I were to get a TM on the term “Pattern Welding” and then patent my process? That is not realistic for many reasons, but think of how it would be. Or if all of us would patent our HT methods."

Just beause it has to do with knives, does not mean you have to be given "free info". That is a current phenomena in the knife community. When I first started, in the late 70's, many would not give new makers any information at all. I read everything I could, and made many mistakes, finding out on my own. I now give what information I can to new makers. But that is MY choice, it is not their right.
Patenting a method of manufacture is a normal process in a free market economy. Why should they be forced to divulge their methods, just because it is knife related. Would you say the same if it was HDTV, or a computer program?

Quote"I do think however, that if I make some pattern welded titanium, put it on a hand made knife, sell the knife, and end up in court with a lawsuit for copyright or patent infringements that would be a big bunch of BS."

Why would that be "BS"? If you made windows XP operating system, in violation of patent rights, you would be prosecuted for it, if caught. What's the difference with Timascus?:confused:

Most manufacturers have patents on their proprietary products, why should not the manufacturer of Timascus(a custom knifemaker BTW)?
It is the way he feeds his family. By your own admission, you have patented things. Would you be happy is others decided that you were selfish, and it was alright to infringe on your patents?

A small infringement here and there, and soon the patent is worthless. To me, that is theft. No insult to you intended.
 
I don't see any issues with patenting the timascus process. It is no different than crucible steel patenting thier powder metal process...and so on. In both cases, someone invested in the R&D and they might want to be rewarded by selling licenses or by controlling the market. Even though it was made by a group of clever custom knife makers, who's to say that it is strickly a product for custom knives. It could very well be used for a variety of lightweight, corrosion resistant, and ornamental applications...

I see this as entrepreneurship at its finest!

If in doubt, read the patent and see what it is.

Sincerely,
Rob
 
Look for the Pat. Pend. Or the patent number.

I would ask timascus if it the name or the PROCESS that is patented?
 
As an afterthought here, I know two of the people who developed Timascus, Tom Ferry, and Bill Cottrell. They are ANYTHING but selfish. They teach others how to make knives on a daily basis, in their own shops, on their own time. They don't begrudge the time, nor do they ask any money for the instructions.

If you don't think their are any secrets in knifemaking, then you havn't been involved in it long enough. There is all kinds of stuff that people won't talk about. :D

Again, no offense intended.:)
 
Well, I agree with most of what you are both saying and I will cover those first.

Maybe I did not express my main point very well. I fully understand why they would want to patent their process. It is the right thing to do, especially when you consider the non-knife related aspects as Rob mentioned.

In my oversimplified way of thinking/reasoning, a patent is used to keep your competitive edge and not allow your competitor to use your technology against you.

If I were to figure out how to make pattern welded titanium, and I went out there and started competing directly with Alpha Knife Supply, and it was revealed that my process was an infringement on the original patent, by all means, prosecute me to the full extent of the law. But, if I am making pattern welded titanium and using it on my knives, I don’t necessarily think I should be sued.

Now, for what I disagree with:

1) I don’t feel it is my right that I receive free information. The info I get from you and the other knife makers on this forum all goes into “consideration.” There are very few things in life that I take for granted. I greatly appreciate all the info I have gotten from you and everybody here, and there is no doubt it has accelerated my progress as a bladesmith. But I do not expect It as a “God given right” just because we are knife makers.

2) I don’t expect the inventors of “Timascus” to tell me how they do it. I just don’t like to think that if I figure out a way to make it, that I will have to get my lawyer involved to make sure I am not in violation of any patents. When all I want to do is use it on my knives with no intent of going into direct competition with the original makers.

3) I don’t think the innovators of “Timascus” are being selfish.


This has definitely got me doing some thinking. There is nothing wrong with proprietary information when it comes to knife making, hopefully someday, I will have some.
:)

Edited to add: No offense has been taken;)
 
Laredo-

I sort of understand where you're coming from, but I think Mike has covered the answers more than adequately.

Rob made a very large point in the fact that Timascus has the potential to feed a MUCH MUCH bigger market than just custom knives.

As Mike stated, Tom feeds his family with his income as a knifemaker...not an easy thing to do...so I feel this gives him even more reason to hold the process propietary.

I would HIGHLY suggest you look into the dangers involved in working Titanium at high heats. Then look at the cost of Titanium stock.

Those two factors should be MORE than enough to deter someone from "trying" to make it work. I was there to watch the refinement of the process unfold, and I will tell you it was WELL EARNED propietary information.

just my $0.02 :)
Nick
 
There's some confusion here.... Only inventions can be patented, only works of art can be copyrighted, and only trademarks can be registered as trademarks.

The word Timascus is a registered trademark. The inventors have applied for a patent on their invention, and while the patent process is pending the invention is protected by common law.

Exactly what invention the pending patent covers is not clear to me, but it sounds like it covers a particular method of pattern welding titanium.

Basically your options are:

1. License the invention from the inventors, which usually involves paying a fee or royalty, but sometimes inventors choose to grant licenses for commercially insignificant use for free.

2. Wait for the patent to expire. (Trademarks don't expire, but patents do.)

3. Invent a method that's sufficiently different that the patent doesn't cover it. It is sometimes possible to produce exactly the same product that way.

4. Steal the invention, get dragged into court, pay over all the profits you made from the theft if any, plus statutory damages, court costs and the plaintiff's legal expenses whether you made any profit from the theft or not.
 
While I'm here I want to talk about the purpose of the Patent Office. Used to be if you invented something the only way you could get much benefit from your invention was to keep it secret. There were three problems with that:

1. There wasn't any practical way to use a lot of inventions while keeping them secret, so there wasn't much profit from trying to invent new things, so not many people tried much = not much progress.

2. If you could use an invention and still keep it secret, you could do it for centuries and nobody else would be able to use the invention until the secret finally leaked out.

3. Nobody else got to know about your secret invention and use that information to help them come up with new inventions of their own = not much progress again.

The idea of patenting inventions is what began the Industrial Revolution and it's what keeps it going. Trade secrets still exist but most inventions are patented instead. Now when somebody invents something he can profit from it for a few years (amply enough to make it worthwhile to try to make inventions; now you can make a career out of inventing and many people do), everybody else gets to read all about it since the invention has to be described in great detail in the patent application and the Patent Office publishes them, and after a few years the invention passes into the public domain and everybody can use it without even paying a royalty.
 
Laredo, I think the others have covered it pretty well. If you look at the dangers and costs involved you will see quite quickly why Timascus is such an amazing feat, worthy of a patent.

To take it one step further, if I were to start patenting the profiles of the blades that I make. Have the lawyers write the claims of the patent broad enough, so that any similar shaped blade would be an infringement of my patent, police all knives being sold, and enforcing my patent rights on those who are in violation. Far fetched? Yes very far fetched, but plausible.
Click to expand...

You may get "design patents" for designs of your knives. Do you have an extra $15k-$25k laying around for the cost of each patent? Have you got more money laying around to prosecute each case of infringement? If you're a Benchmade, Spyderco or Kershaw you probably do. Also if you were to make very broad claims in such a design patent you'd have to make sure you weren't infringing on "prior art" (actual legal term). While it would be possible to obtain a broad patent would likely not hold up in court, and the patent would be invalidated.

"Patent Pending" does not mean "I think this is neat and I don't want anyone to copy it". It means "I'm seeing a law firm and getting a patent". Any infringement could be prosecuted at a huge expense to the looser of the law suit.

This isn't in any way meant to be threatening, but it is just the way things work with Patents (have taken two classes on Intellecutal Property, here at UW).

The serious question in my mind is what happends if you try to fuse titanium together in your forge and you end up burning your shop down? Titanium fires are SERIOUS bussiness. Experiment at your own risk, but don't say you weren't warned!

~Mitch
 
Hey all, thanks for the discussion on this topic. Some how it seems that my points are not getting across the way i indend them to. Oh Well:)

I am very aware of patent law and the costs associated with obtaining a patent. "patent pending" does not mean "I'm seeing a law firm and getting a patent", patent pending means that a patent application has been turned in and is being examined by patent officers. It does however "start the clock". Once the application is turned in, you have protection from the patent office, unless of course, you publically disclose your idea before you turn in an application. In that case you have one year to file your application, after publically disclosing it, before your idea is non-patenable.

Anyway, thanks for all your input and "warnings." I appreciate your opions.
 
One thing I'd add, maybe 2 or 3

I have a friend that knows a lot about this stuff and knows when
to patent or not to patent something.
Food for thought and case and point.

he makes cleaning products for black powder gun use.
he had come up with a product called Wonder Lube TM copy right.
years ago now..
( by the way he supports the Olympics with his products.)
he will not patent it...why?
because he will have to list the
stuff in it,, giving anyone the
ability to make it, by not patenting it, no one has as of yet
copied it. and he hasn't spent 25K on it just to (have to)
divulge the makings of it..and give
him the right to spend big moneys to
sue someone. patents are good in some cases and not in others..

to copy right I believe is very cheap last
I knew $10.00 - $15.00 each
it's been a few years since I've had anything to with it.

I'm working on a block buster right now that will have to be
patented once finished.
it will feed me..patenting something gives you a head start to
get your product out there and your foot firmly planted before
others can take your claim to fame.

not so funny thing..
did you know a man named Gray invented the phone first.
but somebody,, named Bell,, got to the patent office before
he did, now is that fair?
look it up...some secrets need to be secret. that is a big
claim to fame to take from someone ..
:mad: I am a Gray:(
 
I think Timascus is the coolest thing around and I think I understand why they (Bill Cottrell and Tom Ferry) are patenting the process. More power to them! However, I truly don't think their aim is to prevent other custom makers from making the stuff but their aim, in my mind, would be major corporations. Frankly the average maker doesn't have the capability to undertake the risks involved in producing this stuff, either in large or small scale. Big corporations however do and could easily put a small manufacturer out of business once a plant was tooled up to crank the stuff out.

I think the main gist of the first query in this thread is what essentially makes pattern welding one particular metal any different from pattern welding any other metal. Is it the risk involved? I already have had people tell me I'm insane just for pounding on red hot steel much less taking steel up over 2000 degrees to weld it together in my garage. Mokume has been around forever and so has patternwelded steel, so the idea of fusing different metals/alloys together and patterning them to be pleasing to the eye is nothing new. Is this case different because of the level of difficulty/risk involved or is it because titanium is such a relatively new metal in use in our civilization?

For that matter could someone, say one of the few custom knifemakers back in the 60's and 70's have patented pattern welded steel?
 
Originally posted by Laredo7mm
I am very aware of patent law and the costs associated with obtaining a patent. "patent pending" does not mean "I'm seeing a law firm and getting a patent", patent pending means that a patent application has been turned in and is being examined by patent officers. It does however "start the clock". Once the application is turned in, you have protection from the patent office, unless of course, you publically disclose your idea before you turn in an application. In that case you have one year to file your application, after publically disclosing it, before your idea is non-patenable.
Click to expand...

Looks like you understand the patent process pretty well! :) Tom, Bill and Chuck are not trying to exclude the small bladesmiths from making Timascus, they are trying to protect their invention. I have heard that they intend to teach other bladesmiths how to make Timascus once it is legally protected. Just sit tight!

~Mitch
 
OK, how do I delete my other posts and copy what Guy said?:) I guess I need to take some communications classes, because I wish I could have said it as concisely as Silent did. But hey, I am an engineer and communicate with numbers not words:D

Anyway, I am not going to run out and try to make the stuff tomorrow. I have way too many other things to do first. I think it would be the greatest thing if the inventors of Timascus would teach those of us that are interested. Like I said before, it is some beautiful stuff that I wouldn't mind trying to make one day, but not if I was going to get into trouble.

Probably by the time I am ready to try making some, they will be having seminars on Timascus making. Now that I would pay to do and even sign a waiver stating that if I burn down my house/shop while making timascus, that I won't hold them responsible.;)
 
Tom's a good guy, makes finely crafted knives, AND almost burned down his shop learning the Timascus process.
 
If your original post did not belong to BladeForums by default, since you gave it to them, you could have copyrighted it right there on your post. It has been, some years back - in the mid 80's, told to me by a publisher that a person altering my copyright material by enough that left up to 85% of my material would be legal for him to copyright his version. That does not mean just changing the last paragraph or a transistor on a schematic but rather a relatively small deviation to the whole of the material. - sucks -

Patents are more difficult to aquire, obviously. Patent pending has no time limits, as I understand. Patents, as we know, do.

I do believe you can invent a process for manufacture of a product and that process be patentable. For the process to be an invention it must be a unique process for manufacture of product or products.

Roger
 
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