Time To Buy A HT Oven

Dave, I don't know if you saw the thread I started about the forge I got. It turns out that I have an atmospheric heat treating furnace that runs on propane. I'm in contact with someone at Johnson Appliance about possibly getting some type of controller for it. This may well be at unit I can heat treat air hardening steels with. :) I know I can do oil hardening in it because I already did one last Fri. I don't know what kind of prices they have on new units but that might be another option for you.
Scott
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Dave, I don't know if you saw the thread I started about the forge I got. It turns out that I have an atmospheric heat treating furnace that runs on propane. I'm in contact with someone at Johnson Appliance about possibly getting some type of controller for it. This may well be at unit I can heat treat air hardening steels with. :) I know I can do oil hardening in it because I already did one last Fri. I don't know what kind of prices they have on new units but that might be another option for you.
Scott
Click to expand...


Scott you can Quench either in oil.
atmosphere generating
it means you don't have O2 in there to cause decarb.
but once you remove it (the steel) you come into contact with o2 then you'll get decarbing. you can quench air Harding steel in oil
so if your unit is truly set up as a atmosphere generating furnace it should
dump the blades directly into the oil with no contact with o2.
just my 2 cents :)
 
Hi Dave

I use and sell the Evenheat Kilns. I like the Setpro controller. My wife learned to program it in 5 minutes. (It took me 10). :D You can specify up to 8 segments per program with ramp speed and soak time for each and you can even make small adjustments mid cycle if you want. I have the 22.5 inch model - for a couple reasons. The first is the obvious thought that someday - I just may make something that long - or want to heat treat a blade for someone else. Probably more importantly, the 22.5 inch model has more power than the 18" one (3600W vs 3000). The extra 20% is nice in the large cavity.

I think my prices are competative but check them out at www.rangeroriginal.com/catalog under equipment. The kilns are shipped direct from the factory so the shipping should be the same from any distributor.

Rob!
 
Rob,

That's a great price on the kiln!

Assuming price were not an issue, are the Paragons better, or simply more $$?

Thanks,

John
 
Razorback - Knives said:
Dave, I don't know if you saw the thread I started about the forge I got. It turns out that I have an atmospheric heat treating furnace that runs on propane. I'm in contact with someone at Johnson Appliance about possibly getting some type of controller for it. This may well be at unit I can heat treat air hardening steels with. :) I know I can do oil hardening in it because I already did one last Fri. I don't know what kind of prices they have on new units but that might be another option for you.
Scott
Click to expand...
Yeah Scott, I've been using my propane forge up to now too. I bought the South East Heaters controller that Don Fogg recommends to build a salt pot but have never gotten around that. I think it'd work in the forge too, that's a good idea.

My idea for the salt pot was to HT longer blades evenly and without decarb, but I think the electric oven will accomplish that as well, and it sure seems less risky! :eek:
 
Dave come to find out that it's to expensive to upgrade what I've got. It doesn't reach temps high enough for D2 and stainless. 1800 degrees tops for the unit I've got. I'm just going to use it for carbon steel and buy another one for D2 and stainless later. I can get nice even heat on both sides of the blade with it so it will at least be good for carbon steel.
Scott
 
i have nothing but good to say about the even heat kiln i have
while i have only used it a hand full of times 440c and cpm3v have been right on hardness going right off the data sheets so i can guess the the temps on the read out are good
btw i got mine from tim Zowada real nice guy
butch
 
Well this certainly appears like its a pro-Evenheat thread, thats for sure! :)
I guess I'll have to toss my two pennies in here about my Paragon.

I've got the Paragon 14" model, and its a very well-built and solid machine. Very heavy, was the first thing I noticed about it. The front-opening door was actually a feature that I liked about the oven becuase the counterweight keeps the door firmly-pressed against the opening... no need for a latch or handle.

The controller took a bit of a learning curve to get used to because I think Paragon just made the oven for knifemakers, but threw-together the instructional manual with all this generic stuff about cone-firing and all that crap. It kind of pissed me off that I had to spend a lot of time learning to program the darn thing to get what I wanted out of it.

The controller also falls short, imho, on a couple of things. For instance, programming the alarm is clunky and awkward. You certainly must be sure your programming steps are followed correctly, or the alarm will not sound. So here we have a condition in which the oven ramps up to a certain temperature setting with your blade inside. Great! Now how about letting it soak at the temp for a designated time? Okay then. The alarm (if you got it set right) will sound when you reach temp. Fine. Then you have to silence the alarm. Thats okay, but what about an alarm for when the soak is finished? I have to set a kitchen timer. :grumpy:

So all this just to do one heat cycle, and it requires a lot of attention. I cant just set it and an hour later go pull the blade out and quench it, or whatever. You would think that the $1400 I paid for it would have built-in some serious flexibility.

Now, I cant vouch for the Evenheat SetPro controllers, so dont know. I sincerely hope they are easier on the knifemaker than the Paragon, which are made by Sentry. Anyone here with some good resources and some electronic savvy could make an upgrade to either oven to be controlled via the PC, and be fully-controllable, i.e. rate of fire, soak times, ramping, and especially alarms and shutdowns at specified temps. Write up a comprehensive application and you've just made yourself some sweet cash, because you will probably sell a lot of them.
 
Here's some schmancy software/hardware for computer control:

http://www.atspa.com/pdf/3020.pdf

Jeff, I have a hunch you'd find the Evenheat SetPro even less likeable. Spoiled by years of fully-functioned laboratory keypad-programmable equipment, I personally find scrolling linearly through the sequences with 4 keys total on the SetPro is a royal PITA. As an analogy, I would say it would be like using a calculator only with scroll arrows. When I ordered my Evenheat, the factory told me the Rampmaster was absolutely not available as an option. Seems, though, that some have gotten them that way, so perhaps Evenheat has relented.

I have both an analog Paragon and a digital Evenheat. Both are fine furnaces.
 
fitzo said:
Here's some schmancy software/hardware for computer control:

http://www.atspa.com/pdf/3020.pdf

Jeff, I have a hunch you'd find the Evenheat SetPro even less likeable. Spoiled by years of fully-functioned laboratory keypad-programmable equipment, I personally find scrolling linearly through the sequences with 4 keys total on the SetPro is a royal PITA. As an analogy, I would say it would be like using a calculator only with scroll arrows. When I ordered my Evenheat, the factory told me the Rampmaster was absolutely not available as an option. Seems, though, that some have gotten them that way, so perhaps Evenheat has relented.

I have both an analog Paragon and a digital Evenheat. Both are fine furnaces.
Click to expand...

So on the analog Paragon, you must have just a simple control knob to set the temp? How accurate is it?

I looked at the URL you posted. Interesting stuff. Of course, I would spend a lot of time investigating that if I was still employed in my old job. Now that I am working on my own, I actually have to do things that produce an income stream. :D
 
Yes, it is the old "turn knob; alarm system is a clicking relay" setup. :D I bought my furnace in 1984, prior to them offering digi-control on the KG14.

Actually, it worked well for a number of years, Jeff. The accuracy of analog control was quite repeatable and results were good. Then I noticed the as-quenched hardnesses deviating from typical results. At first I suspected the steel analysis. Turned out the thermocouple had aged and, though "apparently functional" was no longer accurate. (I like it much better when they simply die without warning when I fry them in the forge! Another $80 gone...) This is when I became an advocate for having a secondary measurement source for redundancy and periodic thermocouple replacement. I replaced the thermocouple, and everything was hunkydory again.

My research has suggested that the controllers, whether analog or digital have essentially more than adequate accuracy. Their error range is smaller than that of the +/- 3% of thermocouples. Thermocouple error changes with repeated firings at temps approaching their limits. Thermocouples also aren't near as accurate in tempering ranges than at the higher temps they are designed for.

The other question we have to ask is , "How much variance is there between where we measure the temp at versus where we put the blade?"

I guess my bottom line is that the knifemaker should not rely solely on the temp reading and assume his blade is right. One needs to measure the hardnesses/performance of the blade and make the necessary adjustments to the HT cycle, especially as the thermocouple ages prior to replacement. As someone else stated, setting up for home HT of SS's especially should include a Rockwell testor. I would include a secondary temp measurement device to that list..
 
fitzo said:
I guess my bottom line is that the knifemaker should not rely solely on the temp reading and assume his blade is right. One needs to measure the hardnesses/performance of the blade and make the necessary adjustments to the HT cycle, especially as the thermocouple ages prior to replacement. As someone else stated, setting up for home HT of SS's especially should include a Rockwell testor. I would include a secondary temp measurement device to that list..
Click to expand...

This paragraph speaks volumes for the necessity of testing your blades. A bump here or there with the temps and times could prove to be necessary as equipment gets older and resistance values change in the electronics.
 
Well I did it! Got payment in the mail today for a KF 22.5 oven from Tim Zowada.

I am rather psyched...

:D
 
hair on hands gone thinking on the 2nd foil pack i pulled out "i ll just be there a sec cant be that bad"
ooo i had gloves on for the first and all other knives but the 2nd one learned me real good how bad can 1950f be right got a taned hand
i now like my welding gloves and long tongs
 
Congrat's, Dave! You'll like having a furnace.

Plan your space so there's plenty of room around it. These furnaces kick out quite a bit of heat. I have mine on one of those Home Depot wire racks and just wheel it out to the middle of the room when using.

The welding gloves/tongs is the wise idea. I second his recommendation.

Have fun. :)
 
Fitz, I got mine from Tim last year with the Rampmaster II controller. Evenheat was a bit cantankerous about a special order for the Rampmaster II, but Tim convinced them. I think it cost me about $100 extra. The Rampmaster is sweet. They told me it would be several weeks for delivery because of the special order for the Rampmaster. The next week I got a call from the trucker trying to deliver the thing. I was ecstatic that it showed up so quick. I got double charged for shipping by Evenheat, but Tim took care of that right quick. The whole things was a great experience. Tim was great and the oven has been superb.

Dave, did you get the Rampmaster or the SetPoint?
 
Odd how that double-charged shipping happens!! Same with me. :grumpy:

I wish I'd known Tim was selling them when I bought mine several years ago..... he was my teacher when I learned to forge and make damascus many moons ago.

I'm glad Tim got them to offer the Rampmaster. I got a flat "NO!" when I spoke to them; but, then, I'm not a distributor. :) Personally, I detest that Setpro. I am more inclined to just crank the dial on my Paragon unless I need a programmed schedule, then I cuss as I scroll through the sequence. In all fairness, though, it's not that it's that terrible, I'm just spoiled from years of much more controllable lab equipment and being able to access anywhere in a sequence directly. Does the Rampmaster allow that?? Meaning, can you go directly to, say, "step 4 hold time" with just a couple keystrokes?

I'm wondering if I can retrofit mine??? Hmmmmm.

Thanks for making me think. ;)
 
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