Tiny Chips in Edge of 154CM Gerber Gator

[The Mighty Ginsu]

I got myself a Gerber Gator in 154CM. The design is very tough and practical, and I thought the price was great for a steel that good. I thought it would be a good choice for a knife to carry around the farm without worrying if I broke it.

I used a KME sharpener to get it going. That was all I did to it. It has seen light use.

It does not seem to hold an edge at all, and there appear to be tiny micro-chips in the edge. Have others had this issue? I know Gerber makes a lot of junk these days, but this seems extreme. I am wondering if they overheated the edge while sharpening at the factory.

 

[Mk-211]

Did you change the angle from the factory edge?

You might have to add a couple degrees back. If you changed it to 15°, try going back to 17 or 18°. Use it and see if it's still shows chips, if it doesn't, you know how low you can go. If it still does, you may have to go to 20° or more.

 

[conan11]

 

[knarfeng]

I am wondering if they overheated the edge while sharpening at the factory.

That would be my guess, though I don't have a Gator in 154CM. I do have the 42HC version.
Also depends on what "farm chores" you do with it.

If it were mine, I'd sharpen out the chips and see how it goes after that.
I'd probably put a 20 DPS edge on it.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'd also not be surprised if it might've been heat-damaged in the factory edge grinding or sharpening.

If so, one approach is to grind off the apex of the edge by 'slicing' perpendicularly into the surface of a coarse stone, as if attempting to cut the stone in half. Sometimes that's enough to remove heat-damaged steel near the edge, leaving more stable steel behind. Then resharpen to a clean apex and see how it holds up. With some knives, you might have to do this more than once to get the edge back into stable steel.

 

[The Mighty Ginsu]

Did you change the angle from the factory edge?

You might have to add a couple degrees back. If you changed it to 15°, try going back to 17 or 18°. Use it and see if it's still shows chips, if it doesn't, you know how low you can go. If it still does, you may have to go to 20° or more.

Not sure where I got this idea, but I colored the edge with a Sharpie and then adjusted the KMT so when it removed the ink, it took it off evenly, which means I was presumably matching the factory angle pretty well.

Maybe I'll try removing the edge and starting over, as suggested above. Thanks.

 

[The Mighty Ginsu]

I have the 420HC Gator II, but I quit carrying it because the edge was like butter.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I'm not impressed by Gerber's stuff these days, and not surprised yours won't hold an edge.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Sounds like the Gerber Gators I went through thirty years ago. The more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I hadn't thought of it in a long time. But I just remembered I have an old Gerber LST folder I bought back in the early '90s that behaved similarly when I tried to sharpen it. Initially, the edge would seem pretty crisp after sharpening. But it also seemed to fold easily after light cuts in most anything. I stashed it away and essentially forgot about it. Maybe I need to follow my own advice and grind the apex off and start over. I really liked that knife otherwise - it was a perfect light-carry pocketknife in a Zytel handle. I think that one was in 425M steel, which I think Gerber used a lot of in their knives back then.

I'd assumed whatever the issue was with mine, it was some sort of one-off fluke. But in seeing others' comments along the same lines, I think I see a pattern here.

 

[The Mighty Ginsu]

Many decades ago, I bought a Gerber PK-2 in 440C. One day I took a fresh piece of hardwood and used the knife to scrape all the bark off so I could use it as a walking stick. Immediately afterward, the knife was still popping hairs off my arm. That was my first experience with good steel. It's why I still like 440C, even though it's not the best.

I have had two other Gerbers from that era, and one was fine. I have not used the other one because it has weird mismatched scales. The stuff I have bought since has been a little bit better than Camillus.

I don't think there is much that can be done with HRC420, but maybe someone here knows something I don't.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Many decades ago, I bought a Gerber PK-2 in 440C. One day I took a fresh piece of hardwood and used the knife to scrape all the bark off so I could use it as a walking stick. Immediately afterward, the knife was still popping hairs off my arm. That was my first experience with good steel. It's why I still like 440C, even though it's not the best.

I have had two other Gerbers from that era, and one was fine. I have not used the other one because it has weird mismatched scales. The stuff I have bought since has been a little bit better than Camillus.

I don't think there is much that can be done with HRC420, but maybe someone here knows something I don't.

There was a time, back in the 1980s and earlier, when Gerber's blades had a great reputation. I think their slogan in advertising back then was 'Gerber Legendary Blades', and they seemed to live up to that. I don't think I ever knew what steel they used back then. But it was known to be very good.

As to 420HC (or the very similar 425M), at least a few makers have done it very well. Buck Knives treats it to 57-59 RC hardness, and theirs have a great reputation. Buck also used 425M for a while and those had a reputation very similar to their 420HC blades which came later. I have many of theirs in 420HC and have really liked how easily they sharpen up and how well they hold those edges. I also have an older Buck 112 in 425M and don't see any performance difference from their current 420HC. Both sharpen up nicely. Case also uses 420HC, which they named 'Tru-Sharp' stainless. They treat it to 55-57 RC, and it does pretty well within the limits of the steel and that hardness range.

 

[The Mighty Ginsu]

I decided to pick up a Spyderco Salt Native Chief Lightweight in Magnacut. Boy, that's a long name. I want to see if Magnacut is all it's cracked up to be. If so, it should have edge retention good enough for me with less fragility.

Kind of a cheesy handle, but there weren't a lot of choices out there, and it should be good for EDC. Strong enough to work, and not so fancy I'm afraid to get it dirty. We shall see.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Strong enough to work, and not so fancy I'm afraid to get it dirty.

Pretty sure you nailed the design entirely. You may not be so impressed just yet but I bet it really grows on you. I have the smaller Native and really favor it.

 

[The Mighty Ginsu]

The nicer it is, the less likely I am to use it, so I don't like them too fancy. I think G10 is one of the greatest things ever. Not that this is G10.

One thing I don't like about this knife is the difficulty of opening it. I oiled it, and it's still not great. I am not a fan of the Spyderco hole. It's so easy for the thumb to slip out, and then you have a blade out of control. Maybe I'll take it apart and sand the scales.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The nicer it is, the less likely I am to use it, so I don't like them too fancy. I think G10 is one of the greatest things ever. Not that this is G10.

One thing I don't like about this knife is the difficulty of opening it. I oiled it, and it's still not great. I am not a fan of the Spyderco hole. It's so easy for the thumb to slip out, and then you have a blade out of control. Maybe I'll take it apart and sand the scales.

You might want to give it some time for break-in. The pivot's tightness should ease up with some use. Ordinarily, FRN linerless handles don't need any supplemental lubrication, as the material itself is very low friction when it's finished smooth. Oil may tend to collect dirt & other debris in the pivot and exacerbate the opening / closing issues. The FRN bearing against the blade tang in the pivot should burnish a bit with some use, and the stiffness will ease up.

 

[Gottagofishn]

I got myself a Gerber Gator in 154CM. The design is very tough and practical, and I thought the price was great for a steel that good. I thought it would be a good choice for a knife to carry around the farm without worrying if I broke it.

I used a KME sharpener to get it going. That was all I did to it. It has seen light use.

It does not seem to hold an edge at all, and there appear to be tiny micro-chips in the edge. Have others had this issue? I know Gerber makes a lot of junk these days, but this seems extreme. I am wondering if they overheated the edge while sharpening at the factory.

I am not a knife maker so I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but if the knife was overheated during grinding wouldn't the steel be softer and less prone to chipping than a harder undamaged steel?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I am not a knife maker so I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but if the knife was overheated during grinding wouldn't the steel be softer and less prone to chipping than a harder undamaged steel?

I'll also admit I'm not a knifemaker and no expert on this. But the knives I've had that showed signs of tempering damage behaved in strange, unpredictable ways. I earlier mentioned my Gerber LST, which persistently exhibited what I'd describe today as a 'foil edge' which defied removal by my usual deburring methods. I'd sharpen it and then go through my usual deburring process, including very light edge-leading passes on the stone at a slightly elevated angle and stropping afterward. And initially, it seemed sharp and crisp. But even after just a couple slices in paper, the edge would fold. In that example, it would seem that it had been softened.

Another example, which is the strangest I've seen, was an inexpensive stainless paring knife I'd bought at the grocery store. Through months of many resharpenings, as soon as the edge was close to what should be fully apexed, the apex would literally crumble away to dust when attempting to cut anything. I came close to just tossing it many times, but instead just put it away for a long time and forgot about it. When I finally came back to it many months later, I was finally able to grind enough of that weird steel away from the edge that it finally started showing stability. Once there, I was able to sharpen it up to nice, thin geometry that I like. And magically, it actually became a knife I like to use now.

Between those two examples, I speculate a lot depends on just how overheated the edge becomes. In other words, maybe just a few hundred degrees too hot, which I assume would essentially anneal the steel, softening it. Or, if it's overheated very severely, maybe enough to over-harden when it cools, I think that might bring on chipping issues or that odd crumbling behavior I observed.

 

[Gottagofishn]

I'll also admit I'm not a knifemaker and no expert on this. But the knives I've had that showed signs of tempering damage behaved in strange, unpredictable ways. I earlier mentioned my Gerber LST, which persistently exhibited what I'd describe today as a 'foil edge' which defied removal by my usual deburring methods. I'd sharpen it and then go through my usual deburring process, including very light edge-leading passes on the stone at a slightly elevated angle and stropping afterward. And initially, it seemed sharp and crisp. But even after just a couple slices in paper, the edge would fold. In that example, it would seem that it had been softened.

Another example, which is the strangest I've seen, was an inexpensive stainless paring knife I'd bought at the grocery store. Through months of many resharpenings, as soon as the edge was close to what should be fully apexed, the apex would literally crumble away to dust when attempting to cut anything. I came close to just tossing it many times, but instead just put it away for a long time and forgot about it. When I finally came back to it many months later, I was finally able to grind enough of that weird steel away from the edge that it finally started showing stability. Once there, I was able to sharpen it up to nice, thin geometry that I like. And magically, it actually became a knife I like to use now.

Between those two examples, I speculate a lot depends on just how overheated the edge becomes. In other words, maybe just a few hundred degrees too hot, which I assume would essentially anneal the steel, softening it. Or, if it's overheated very severely, maybe enough to over-harden when it cools, I think that might bring on chipping issues or that odd crumbling behavior I observed.

Interesting... I have a 8" Fiskars kitchen knife, probably 40 years old. It was one of the first knives I started messing with when I got serious about sharpening. I ground it to around 15 degrees on a fine belt. When I tested it on the Bess it left a noch on the apex where it hit the media. Under magnification it looked like the steel just crumbled under pressure. I thought the steel just couldn't handle a 15 degree bevel. I have sharpened that same knife many times since on a Tormek. These days it takes a 15 degree edge no problem. I probably had been destroying the apex grinding it with a fine belt being new to powered sharpening at the time.

I would love to see documentation on what exactly happens to an apex when it meets excessive heat during grinding? As in electron microscope pics? Does it just get soft, or can it crumble and chip?