Tip up vs. Tip down

T

tribalbeeyatch

Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
121
Howdy,

I've been browsing the forums quite a bit at work (way too much, in fact), and I'm finding that a lot of people seem to prefer a tip up method of carry for their pocket clip folders. Why is that? Now, some of these people have also expressed that the tip up carry makes for a faster draw, but I just don't see it. With the tip up, it seems like you would have to plunge your hand entirely into your pocket before drawing. My own drawing style favors the tip down carry, and it seems to me that it is much faster/more efficient. Am I missing something? Which do you prefer, tip up or tip down, and why?
 
To me tip up works better most of the time. Tip down makes for a flashier presentation and when the blade opens it is point up and your hand is in a position to slash. I carry my EDC in my right front pocket all the way to the rear of the pocket so the spine of the knife is up against the seam. With a dip up draw, I only slide my thumb into my pocket and grab the bottom of the clip with my index finger. I use my right index finger to start pulling the knife upward out of the pocket. This causes my thumb to fall right on the thumb opening stud as the knife comes out of my pocket and puts teh knife in a natural hold for a folder with teh spine of the handle right against my palm where it should be. Because of the placement of my thumb on the stud I can start opening the blade as soon as the knife clears my pocket. Often it is possible to have the knife open and locked just after it leaves the pocket, but it is below most people's (potential opponents) line of sight. It also positions the knife so that an immediate forward upward thrust would be much harder to block by an opponent than an upraised, tip down, draw would allow.

I started using this technique with Cold Steel Voyagers, but it also works well with my small Sebenza and particurlarly well with my Benchmade 941s.

Just my opinion.

jmx

PS: I do own a couple tip down knives that I like a lot too. My Microtech Socom Elite, William Henry T10-CF and Elishewitz Persian are all tip down and fine knives, but the lil Sebbie and the 941 get the EDC nod most days.
 
I prefer tip up carry myself. While you do have to reach farther to draw, I find it faster to do that instead of flip the knife over when it it drawn from the pocket. My $0.02 anyway...
 
When I carried my Gerber EZ-Out as a primary EDC, I only liked tip down, since the hole in the blade makes this the better carry position for a quick draw. I bought a Benchmade Stryker, and couldn't see why they made it a tip down knife because to draw it quickly, you had to pull it out, then flip it in your hand, then flick it open. In a stressful situation, this could lead to you dropping the knife. I have a nice dent in my bedroom wall from trying to speed draw the knife and it slipped out of my hand. Well, I ultimately got used to that method of carry, and, like you, I wondered what the benefit of tip up carry was in a knife because of the reason you mentioned with getting a good grip. Well, I am now the proud owner of a EKI Mini Commander, and it is tip up. I can draw that knife quicker than any knife I have ever owned, and I don't have to juggle the knife to get it in the proper grip position.

Knives with Holes in the blade like Spyderco, Gerber EZ-Out, etc, are best served with tip down IMHO. There are others however, that are better served with tip up carry.

Mike
 
Some of these replies about the difficulties of a tip down draw make me wonder how others are going about it. Let me try to describe how I go about it, and maybe y'all can tell me how you do it differently.

I carry my tip down knife as far towards my midline as I can with the blade facing my midline. In my initial contact with the knife, my thumb is perpendicular to the handle with its pad on the thumb stud (on the "inside" of the blade) and my index and middle fingers grasp the pocket clip. Removing the knife from my pocket is accomplished by pivoting my hand (either at the elbow or wrist), which both lifts the knife out of the pocket as well as lining it up with my hand into a nice gripping position. Thumb pressure is applied either just as or just before the tip of the blade clears my pocket, so it is basically opened as soon as it leaves my pocket. Notice that there is no need to change the grip of the knife during the draw; it's just one fluid pivoting action.

With the descriptions of tip up drawing/opening that I've read so far it seems like the only potential benefit is that the opening can be begun as soon as the tip clears the top of the pocket rather than after the entire knife has. But this seems to come at the expense of having to dig deeper during the draw. People have also mentioned that tip up carry has greater accident potential. Can anybody attest to this?
 
I currently carry a Kershaw Leek with the tip up. One of the things I reaaly like about the Leek is that I can choose which I prefer as the clip is easily moved. Just two T6 screws and you can rotate the clip 180 degrees. I like the tip up carry because the knife is already in the position I am going to hold it in. Just one small push on the back of the blade and it's ready to use. I wish all folders had this clip option built in right out of the box.
 
So you carry your knife in your pocket on the side close to your crotch?? Doesn't that tend to be uncomfortable when you sit down? Most people I have seen, myself included, carry their knife in their pocket closer to their side. BTW, this also places the blade against the seam of your pants in the tip up carry position. This prevents the blade from opening in your pocket. As far as reaching deep to grab the knife. I thought that would be a problem myself prior to buying my first tip up knife, the EKI Mini Commander. I have had no such problems. I love it, and find the draw much faster than a knife in tip down carry, even if I don't use the wave to open. That comparison is not including Spydercos and my EZ-Out. I can grab the hole in the blade and draw and flick the knife open as quick as I can get the Emerson out without using the wave. If I use the wave, it is the fastest draw I have ever experienced. It is truly unparallelled.

Mike
 
A thought just occured to me. When people say that tip up carry puts the knife in the proper position upon opening, I take that to mean that they AREN'T talking about a defensive draw/open situation? To me, a few tenths of a second either way don't make much difference for a non-defensive situation. But they can make all the difference in a defensive situation. I think that my tip down carry/draw method saves those tenths, but I'm just not sure. Maybe I'm not quite conceptualizing the tip up draw correctly.
 
I wear my Al Mar SERE 2K in a pocket just about my knee, easy acces, quick draw, discrete...

The SERE is a very nice knife except... When you run are jump... if you move around then the knife has already half opened on me in my pocket. No injuries :-) .

The blade does not snap shut (not much) when the edge dissapears in the handle. When you draw, it is easy to open it up a few centimeters and snap it open, just like that.

Now ik keep my SERE with the clip in a hole to stay clear of unvoluntary openings. The spine is next to the edge of pocket.

Bye!
 
Mike,

Yes, I carry on the crotch side of my pocket. It isn't uncomfortable for me because I don't sit that much during the day, and when I do I move the knife.

I just thought of another reason why I favor the tip down "crotch carry". This method keeps your midline more protected during the draw and thus is more in line with basic self defense philosophy.

I'm really curious about "the wave" on your Emerson. I just pulled up an ad for one, and I'm guessing that it's the little spur at the base of the blade spine? If so, then do you sort of press out toward the seam of your pocket as you draw to open the blade? That sounds fast, but what if it doesn't catch or it only partially opens? Is there an easy recovery from a "misfire" situation like this?
 
For me, tip up is the fastest and most natural way to get the knife from closed in my pocket to open in my hand.

Johnny
 
Although this topic has been done to death, I'll bite. I've don't own a tip down knife and will never again own a tip down. My preference: TIP UP.
 
Originally posted by tribalbeeyatch
Mike,

I'm really curious about "the wave" on your Emerson. I just pulled up an ad for one, and I'm guessing that it's the little spur at the base of the blade spine? If so, then do you sort of press out toward the seam of your pocket as you draw to open the blade? That sounds fast, but what if it doesn't catch or it only partially opens? Is there an easy recovery from a "misfire" situation like this?
Click to expand...

The way you carry your knife is really the exception, not the rule. Not sure what you mean about tip up carry not putting the knife in the defense position. When I draw my commander, my hand is on the handle, and the blade is pointing forward. How isn't that a defensive draw? I carried a BM Stryker until it grew legs and found another home against my will. It was a tip down, and when I carried it in my pocket towards my side, like most people do, I had to grab it with my thumb and index finger, pull it out of the pocket, flip it over in my hand so the butt of the handle would be toward my wrist, then flick the blade open without the thumb stud. If I carried my Gerber, I would just grab the hole in the blade and pull the knife out and flick it open. I can see how your method of carry works, however, I personally think carrying the knife in that position looks goofy (my opinion only, not to knock your method), plus the knife gets in the way when I want to put my hand in that pocket. Also, you say you have to move the knife when you sit down. I don't have to move mine from the side because it doesn't get in the way. That being said, I now carry a mini commander, and it is the fastest knife I have ever seen. To answer your question about the missed or partial open, yes it is easy to recover. You just flick the handle and the blade swings open. Might take some practice if you aren't used to flicking a knife open in that manner, but the Emerson is weighted perfectly to do it, and the pivot is so smooth it really takes very little effort. You can view a small video clip of the commander with the wave opening here. You need to then click on the link for the video vault. Or you can view the video directly by clicking on this link. However, I recommend going to the previous link because there are a couple other video clips you might be interested in.

Hope this clears things up for you.

Mike
 
Originally posted by Medic1210
I can see how your method of carry works, however, I personally think carrying the knife in that position looks goofy (my opinion only, not to knock your method), plus the knife gets in the way when I want to put my hand in that pocket.
Click to expand...
LOL! I was just going to say that another advantage that I thought of for the "crotch carry" is that the knife is more out of the way when I want to get something out of my pocket! Oh, and no offense taken on the "goofy" thing, it seems like this is all coming down to different strokes for different folks.
You can view a small video clip of the commander with the wave opening here. You need to then click on the link for the video vault. Or you can view the video directly by clicking on this link. However, I recommend going to the previous link because there are a couple other video clips you might be interested in.
Click to expand...
Dammit, Mike, I was going along blissfully unaware of the wave until you came along. After seeing that video, I HAVE TO GET A COMMANDER!!! And I don't have anywhere near the scratch it's going to take to get one. Sigh.

Oh, and the video of "standard use" of the commander (i.e. using thumb stud instead of the wave) was good for me to see also. If that's the way that tip up carriers are doing it then my method is definitely faster. In fact, I've been experimenting with tip down carry but with the knife against the outside of my pocket, and it's still much faster than tip up. It seems like it boils down to this...with tip down carry, you have to have the blade side towards your crotch regardless of where the knife sits in your pocket.
 
One more question about the wave, Mike. Does it wear down that side of your pocket if you use it much? Aww hell, even if it does, buying a few more pairs of jeans would be worth it for the wave. Time to start saving up!
 
I'm really indifferent. Usually I wear pants that doesn't really allow fast tip up deployment, and I felt a bit safer having a tip down knife.
I have both tip up and tip down. I rarely find myself needing to whip it out in a hurry.
 
Tribalbeeyatch,

To clarify one thing about the "standard use" video. I will agree that it is much slower if you draw and then have to reposition to use the thumb stud. However, I have yet to use the stud like that, as if I don't use the wave feature, I just flick the knife open by "snapping" my wrist. I'm surprised they don't have a clip of that, since that is a very popular way to open knives. I can get the mini commander out and into action using the "flick" method almost as quick as using the wave feature. Again, your method is quick if you carry the tip down knife on the side you do. Everyone I know that carrys a pocket-clip knife doesn't carry that way.

To answer your question regarding wearing out the pocket, yes it does to some extent. I have only damaged one pair of shorts, but they were a very light weight cargo short like the kind that fold up in their back pocket. The pocket ripped open after about 50 or so waves. As far a jeans, I haven't seen much wear at all. Also, you will find that some pants don't wave it open as well as others, and you may even need to change the draw in little ways depending on which pants you are wearing. This is something I have found out on my own, and YMMV. My EMS uniform pants have a very angled pocket, and take a deliberate rearward draw to wave it. I find this difficult if doing a "panic" draw where I have a tendency to draw straight out and miss the wave. Again this is no problem because I have incorporated a wrist flick in my "panic" draw which opens the blade regardlessly. If you get one, you won't regret it. I love mine, and am seriously considering getting another EKI in the future. Unfortunately, my wife isn't as understanding as a lot of the wives on this board :(

Edited to add: Also, remember that I used to carry the Gerber EZ-Out as primary EDC. This was a tip down knife, and since it had a hole in the blade, I could draw it faster than any knife I had at the time, even my BM Stryker, which is also tip down. Now that I own the mini commander, it has moved to the top of the speed list, waved or not.


Mike
 
I prefer tip down carry. :D
This position allows for a lightning fast draw of my Spyderco Military, via the oversized Spyderco Trademarked Hole. Just a pinch, and a flick of the wrist...
...and my Spydie is ready for playtime. :cool: :D
 
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