titanium frame locks, what's the big deal?

To answer your question, the "big deal" with Ti Framelocks is CRK... superior lockup giving a folder almost fixed blade stability opened other makers' eyes... Take it a step further, and RHK adds a stabilizer to it and others follow suit. Basically, the more expensive companies jumped on board- so now everyone else wants in. Those premium companies charge what they charge, so everyone else assumes it's because of the Ti framelock that makes a knife demand a high price. Also, if you disassemble your knife for cleaning- there isn't anything easier/better than a framelock.

I still happen to prefer liner locks (when done correctly), because I prefer the overall look of the knife to appear complete and not half scale and half open- BUT I've seen many companies do a poor job with liner locks- so it's not the be all end all from each company. I also like axis locks, BUT they're too much of a pain to clean.
 
Not a fan of framelocks myself, got my share of lock slips and flexes on linerlocks and the only frame i bought can slip too with just finger pressure, no white knuckling.
Im also sick of them being overrepresented, overpriced, misrepresented as 'bank vaults', easy to disengage on torque even if people tell you it does reinforce the lockup if you press the lockbar sideways.
Oh and i'm fairly sure manufacturers really like them as they havent to pay royalties to Reeve nor Walker and because they are way easier to produce than a proper lockback.
 
^ my experience has been a little different, I've never had my 0561 with lock bar insert stick..ever. Nor have i felt creaking. As far as I can tell its a screw holding the insert on the frame but who knows. If your liner lock wears out or gets damaged don't you have to send it in for replacement? This is a matter of personal preference, personally liner locks don't inspire confidence with me I've had several liners slip off the tang with very minimal use. Liner locks have significantly less material in contact with the tang of the blade and in my experience are more prone to lock slip. YMMV

I've never had either framelocks or linerlocks slip. Yes, the inserts are held in by screws but they are also press fit. Even if you take off or loosen the screw you won't be getting the insert off unless you know what you are doing. Then to get it back on you'll need to press fit it back on. Yes, linerlocks have to be sent in for replacement, but effectively, so do framelocks with inserts as well. What were you doing with your knife that caused the lock to slip?
 
Its not the strongest lock,
have the potential to develop more problems,
premium priced,
slippery,
accidentally disengage some times.
I thought there were reasonably priced Ti frame folders on the market and I didn't know the well made models had any of these problems.
 
I had a gerber folding knife years ago, while making hard cuts into wood if my blade binded pulling up and pushing down would make the liner slip rather easily. Upon finding this out i applied pressure to the back of the blade and could fold it in my hands about 50% of the time i applied pressure. Not exactly confidence inspiring. Another liner lock i had slip was a knife from 5.11 and it suffered the same symptoms as the gerber.

I brought up the lock bar insert because you said the entire framelock side needed to be replaced which isnt always true. Also I dont think its anymore labor intensive to change a framelock side or lock bar insert than changing out the liner of a knife, it could actually be cheaper to replace a lock bar insert than a liner...

Its your opinion that a framelock is unsightly, like i said your entitled to it. I disagree and think framelocks look great. If you rather not look at a lock bar stabilizer or insert than dont buy a framelock and avoid looking at there pictures on the internet problem solved. So your "issues" with framelocks are your opinion based on what you like, the liner lock has zero advantages in my opinion.



I prefer liner locks. Most uses of folding knives don't need any more lock strength than a slipjoint does anyhow. I'd rather have something where my hands don't contact the lock directly - gripping these knives can accelerate wear due to pushing in the lock face farther across the tang. Replacement and repair is also more involved and expensive with a frame lock where the entire lockside needs to be replaced. Framelocks are also more unsightly than liner/bolster locks in my opinion. I'd rather not constantly be looking at the lock cutout, overtravel stop and exposed Ti.
 
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I had a gerber folding knife years ago, while making hard cuts into wood if my blade binded pulling up and pushing down would make the liner slip rather easily. Upon finding this out i applied pressure to the back of the blade and could fold it in my hands about 50% of the time i applied pressure. Not exactly confidence inspiring. Another liner lock i had slip was a knife from 5.11 and it suffered the same symptoms as the gerber.

I brought up the lock bar insert because you said the entire framelock side needed to be replaced which isnt always true. Also I dont think its anymore labor intensive to change a framelock side or lock bar insert than changing out the liner of a knife, it could actually be cheaper to replace a lock bar insert than a liner...

Its your opinion that a framelock is unsightly, like i said your entitled to it. I disagree and think framelocks look great. If you rather not look at a lock bar stabilizer or insert than dont buy a framelock and avoid looking at there pictures on the internet problem solved. So your "issues" with framelocks are your opinion based on what you like, the liner lock has zero advantages in my opinion.

You're basing your opinion that a liner lock is advantageous in strength by comparing Gerber and 5.11 knives to a ZT. I doubt that a Gerber framelock would be as strong and I doubt a ZT linerlock would be as weak.

You're right that it's cheaper to change a lockbar insert than a liner, but this is generally not an issue for the consumer since warranty covers it either way.
 
I own 6 Titanium framelock, simply because I enjoy their simplicity. They are easy to clean, easy to take apart and put together, and I have yet to have one fail, slip, or develop lock rock. I also have a Benchmade with the axis lock, which has developed vertical blade play with hardly any use.
 
My 2 cents. I like many kinds of knives and locks but strongly prefer knives which can be opened and closed with one hand. Any "cool" factor aside, titanium framelocks are just right for me. The benefits of titanium were already mentioned and I have to think that many deteractors of this style of knife have little experience with one done right. A properly executed framelock should not stick when unlocking or have the lock engage further while gripping tight. Carbidizing the lockbar face will dramatically improve the longevity and I have never seen one which was well made wear out. If one was to judge the strength of the lock under real world usage and not destruction testing with bench vises and enormous amounts of weight I think any well made framelock would easily pass muster.

The problem is that there are many poorly made mass produced framelocks (and even more so with linerlocks) and many people have experience solely with those so I understand their reservations. If framelock stying is not your cup of tea I have no problem with that at all but I think it prematurely judgemental to dismiss the mechanics entirely. Another issue is that it does cost more to the end user to get their hands on a good framelock because probably no other lock takes as much fitting by hand.

Mark

I couldn't have said it better myself. To add to this, I can take apart, clean and re-assemble any of my framelocks in a fraction of the time I do my other folders. A flipper is usually paired with a framelock, which is my preferred opening method also so to me it's a win win.
 
At least there's a cure for slippery.;

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First of all, in order not to be misunderstood. I am collecting Chris Reeve Sebenza, made by the "godfather of integral locks" :-))

Basically there are poor and excellent frame/integral locks arround, as well as poor and excellent liner locks. Therefore the type of locking mechanismn used does not tell anything about the quality and strenght of a folding knive.

Weight is more a theoretical advantage, I would say. You can make a liner lock knife by using a titanium frame and carbon scales and it will not have a considerable higher weight than a titanium frame lock, which has its constructural limitations when it comes to making the scales thin.

In terms of aesthetics some may find the lock bar side of a frame lock not very attractive.

When it comes to usage within "dirty environment", the more open construction of a frame lock may has its advantages in terms of easier cleaning because of better access.

From my point of view the popularity of titanium frame locks does not come from the locking construction itself, but from the current hype for "tactical-heavy-overbuilt" type of folders and it seems that a frame lock does serve the intended image of such a knife much better than a liner lock. Personally I feel that every day a new brand appears at the scene, trying to get a piece of the cake of this particular and currently popular type of knife market. That is a bit boring to me.

Just my thoughts.

Stefan
 
If it doesn't matter about ease of replacement than why did you bring it up? You said framelocks are more labor intensive and costlier didn't you?You brought it up and I said no that's not always true..glad you see my point.

And yes my experience with the knives I mentioned are why I don't like liner locks, along with the fact framelocks have significantly more contact between tang and lock bar I see no reason to use liner locks. That's just my preference. You prefer liner locks. Thats fine.
You're basing your opinion that a liner lock is advantageous in strength by comparing Gerber and 5.11 knives to a ZT. I doubt that a Gerber framelock would be as strong and I doubt a ZT linerlock would be as weak.

You're right that it's cheaper to change a lockbar insert than a liner, but this is generally not an issue for the consumer since warranty covers it either way.
 
Who cares which system is the most perfect lock up or whatever? How many of you have ever worn out any locking mechanism from actual use, and not screwing around flipping it in front of the TV?

Ti frame lock knives are either 2 or 3 pieces of metal (plus hardware), strong, tough, light and corrosion proof. No springs, liners, small moving parts or glue. Why would it take some sort of mental leap to understand the appeal of that?
 
For me the perfect lock is a well constructed perfectly operating titanium framelock. It is simple and elegant and easy to maintain. I do not care for the new ones with steel lock bar inserts. I love my SNG with perfect lock up ( can be hit or miss) and the same for CRK and Burke.
Ive been full circle and they all have some possible issues. I can disengage most locks, even a triad or axis by certain movements or a gorilla grip.
I love the triad, axis, ball bearing and compression lock as well. All are very well engineered. But given a choice, less is more.
I am also not concerned about a lock wearing out. Only have done that on a thin liner lock.
I will carbidize my SNG tomorrow for the heck of it. I did this on an SMF that a friend has and he has beaten that thing for two years now. Locks up rock solid at 75% just like a good CRK will and will continue to do so.
I am too tired to continue. Sorry for not making much of a point.
Varga took care of that already.
Matt
 
I prefer it simply because it's my favorite locking mechanism. Sure maybe the Axis lock is nice, but I can't justify the price point of Benchmade knives for what they offer. Liner locks are fine, but they generally only get used in lower end knives, which once again, I don't tend to buy. So what you're left with is basically framelocks.
 
I prefer liner locks. Most uses of folding knives don't need any more lock strength than a slipjoint does anyhow. I'd rather have something where my hands don't contact the lock directly - gripping these knives can accelerate wear due to pushing in the lock face farther across the tang. Replacement and repair is also more involved and expensive with a frame lock where the entire lockside needs to be replaced. Framelocks are also more unsightly than liner/bolster locks in my opinion. I'd rather not constantly be looking at the lock cutout, overtravel stop and exposed Ti.

for the most part i agree but i will say titanium rules and i have no problem with owning a frame lock as long as it's not a heavy user.
 
I don't mind plain, slab sided ti framelocks. I've owned a few for many, many, years now.

I just don't want the same knife from 20 different makers. Seen one you've seen 'em all. One more boring knife isn't better than the last 50.

At least Lionsteel rounds and sculpts theirs. That's different. That's nice. That's not boring.
My new Kershaw Ruby has rounded and chamfered edges, an ergonomic shape, polishing, anodizing, a bearing pivot, a sculpted pocket clip. It doesn't look, or feel, like all the sebenza clone ti framelocks.

Ti lined liner locks can have many different scales, patterns, colors and shapes. They are different, and interesting.

When any maker offers a "new" beadblasted, slab sided, plain ti framelock, I automatically tune out. I have enough of those and certainly don't want to spend my knife money on any more.
 
I have a gen 3 ZT0550 with the lock insert. It took forever to break in the detent to make it open one handed.....Probably 1,000+ actuations. Looking at the area where the insert touches the blade, there is just a smudge and wipping it off, I can only see a very slight mark with a a magnifying glass. The lock is at the same place when new.

This knife will outlast me.

Also, not sure how old people are or if you ride motorcycles. But back in 1990ish I had a Yamaha FZR400RR and put on a Kerker Titanium/Carbon Fiber Exhaust. The Titanium option added $1,000 to the price. Most of the titanium you see comes from Russia and until they opened up, it was stupid expensive.
 
I just picked up my 3rd ti frame lock, a Sage 2. For me it's what others have said, simplicity. It's a very simple and pleasing design that by the nature of the materials, will be a sturdy and problem free tool.
 
There is an adage: If you don't like the answer, ask a different question. I own and have used left-handed Umnumzaan (old model), Russell K-87 CW, and Cold Steel medium TwistMaster clip point. In my mind the essential features of a single-bladed folding knife are: safey (no inadvertent cutting yourself by knife and/or lock failure; and convenience. Trying to acquire "the strongest" locking folding knife is waste effort once the lock is verified to lock. Unless one has a compelling reason for owning big, strong, folding knives that are still not close to as durable as a fixed blade at a fraction of the cost, you wind up with a folding knife that you wear with a belt sheath - or something that wears out the pocket in which it's carried.

My Umnumzaan, weighing 5.12 ounces was bought because our fire chief does not permit EMTs to carry fixed bladed knives on a call-out. The knife is strongly built, reasonably convenient to carry in my "work" outfit, and has an integral side-window breaker. I never carry it otherwise. Were fixed bladed knives allowed, the Umnumzaan would be history.

Russell's K-87 CW was bought as an everyday carry knife. After carrying it for a long while, I could no longer deny that the blade shape is not particularly useful and its locking device - I have no idea how to categorize it - is inconvenient to release. But I must admit, the Cowry X damascus blade is hell for retaining sharpness.

And now we come to my Opinel on steroids. The TwistMaster I own is essentially the same size as the Umnumzaan while weighing 2.88 ounces. In pocket it is unnoticeable. Its locking device is as simple as these things get. The entire knife has precisely four parts - grip, blade, lock ring, pivot pin (or hinge). It opens one handed were I to require the feature. Many times when using any folding knife the locking feature is unnecessary. If not twisting its locking ring to engage, the knife is also a one-handed closer. Having used the knife as an all-purpose kitchen knife, as well as everyday carry knife, for more than three years, I conclude that its lock is sufficiently convenient and sufficiently strong for everyday carry. Its weak spot, as I believe is true of all single-bladed folders, is hinge assembly's resistance to torsional stress - that is, twisting the blade or trying to use it as a pry bar. Having used it the way I would normally use an everyday carry knife, I conclude that hinge assembly strength is overrated. That's why we have fixed blades. Its grip is about as secure as can be found, especially when hands are bloody or greasy. Its blade shape is one I appreciate, but that has little to do with our topic. Its carbon steel blade is run-of-the-mill for retaining sharpness. Since sharpening is easy and quick, this is not an issue. Its hinging assembly requires zero maintenance; I have not used any lubricant or rust preventative on hinge or blade for more than three years, and I have no plan to use any in the future. The blade acquired a mottled patina within two weeks of kitchen use. No additional change. And its twist-to-lock assembly has built-in compensation for wear and tightness.

Its liability is the darn thing was egregiously overpriced when in production. Now that it's decades out of production it's egregiously overpriced as a collector's item. For the record, I bought mine on a closeout for $4.95.

I described the knife as an Opinel on steroids. I have not handled any Opinel knife long enough for a meaningful comparison beyond reporting Opinel's twist-to-lock knives appeared to be more cheaply made. But at their price, anyone could experience this simple device. Were you to find it useful, perhaps what I think of as egregiously overpriced might not be.

Hope this helps.
 
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