titanium frame locks

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Jonsa

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wondering how long titanium framlocks last from wear and a lot of use such as in a hinderer or strider. Just trying to figure out how a softer titanium lasts rubbing against a steel blade over time. I know weaker liner locks dont wear that bad because it is steel against steel. Hoping to hear an opinion from someone that has used these 400 dollar plus knives the way they were designed for, over a long period of time.
 
Depends on a great many factors; the hardness of the titanium after it's treated, hardness of the steel at the tang, how large the contact area is, frequency of opening and closing the knife, etc. Also, one quick point. A well executed linerlock is generally stronger than a similar framelock design.
 
You should remember. You get different grades of Titanium. Lets say from Grade 1 to Grade 5. Grade one being the poorest and grade five being that used for good Ti framelocks. Any other grade cannot be used for a lock as it will wear to fast and is mainly suited for bolsters or liners within a folder. The execution of a liner or framelock is very important as well. There are a few recipes, however, the basic principles are all the same. Bob Terzuola's book on the Tactical Folder discuss these basic principles in great depth.

To give you an idea I have seen a Sebenza here in South Africa that date back to when Chris Reeve started making these knives. Still functioning and with zero issues. That knife is over 20 years old. I wish I knew back then what knife it was but I did not know that much about knives back then. I have seen liner locks close to 15 years old without any issues. A Burger Large EXK comes to mind and a user knife from Des Horn and mine from Gareth Bull that I have used and flipped open numerous times without the lock moving after a few months of continuous use. Rick Hinderer's XM knives also come to mind.

Then again I have seen knives with A grade materials from an A grade maker where the lock has been worn out under a year. Main cause....the end user. Some people will be excessive on a lock and just wear it out faster then others. Some will take care of a knife for many years, others wont. It depends a lot on the person using the knife. I have seen a backlock worn out under a year (mainly due to excessive and compulsive opening and closing so much it basically became a slip joint) and I consider that one of the locks that can take wear and tear.
 
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There are many factors involved, as stated. Also, many higher end liner-locks are Ti, not steel, & they seem to wear quite well. I have a '99 Emerson CQC-7 (No wave & with Ti liner & liner-lock). It's seen heavy use, both in & out of this country, & was my EDC for a solid 6-7 yrs (It's probably seen more "real life" situations than most). Lock-up is at 2/3 or so with NO play & I still have it. I also had a large regular Seb ('05, I think) that was well used & it's lock-up was at 50%. Admittedly, it did not see quite as hard use as the CQC-7, but it wore well.

The materials used, the design of the lock system (Different makers/companies may do their frame-locks a little differently), & of course, the user. As a previous poster stated, constant, continual opening/closing can put tremendous wear on the lock vs actual hard use that's high-stress for a short duration.

To the OP, are you concerned about getting 10+ yrs of usage out of an expensive folder or trying to justify spending a certain amount of $ for a folder?
 
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Most makers heat up the contact with their own specific 'treatment' using a torch to get the ti to a straw color or at the least a flame orange reddish glow and then let it cool on its own out in the air. This is sometimes repeated two or three times and then bead blasted off on the outer surfaces and other places where it can be seen. What this does is two fold really. It anodizes the titanium so it turns several colors after cooling down and it hardens that surface with a oxide layer of good hard surface. Sometimes those colors are hard to get off after using a torch even by bead blasting and require hand rubbing or some help to get down to clean it up. The appearance of surface appears glossy also and its noticeably harder to drill after this area is heated. The anodizing or color is actually an oxide layer. When coloring these ti pieces using a DC generator the surface is coated uniformly on the outside and it looks pretty and since its consistent and uniform it looks professional. This type of treatment anodizes until the outer surface is coated and then it stops. Heating with a torch to get it flame anodized by contrast anodizes from the inside out and is a learning curve kind of art that takes some trial and error to get the feel for. Some are particularly good at this. (Strider has proven to be quite good at this)

The oxide layer is actually near ceramic in hardness on titanium best as most can tell. It would still Rockwell softer but the oxide itself is said to be a hard layer. On aluminum the hard anodizing coatings are even harder as I recall. Separate issue though. While it may be true that this is so these anodized layers still scratches but when heated it is going to allow the oxide layer to be more than just outer surface only since it heats up and anodizes from the inside out. This means that harder surface is deeper into it and the idea is that in making the hardened oxide deeper in the titanium it means it will last longer and wear better against the hardened blade. At least this is how it was explained to me years ago and it pans out in use as you can obviously tell that a titanium lock wears far better when it has been torched this way vs one that is not treated at all. I've tested this and to my satisfaction could tell this was the case and therefore adopted the policy of using a torch to treat the lock face before a ti lock side left my shop. Some of those still have the tells from slight purple or colored areas around the lock that would not strip off or were hard to get to.

Ti has a natural tendency to stick or gall to dissimilar metals and itself so this characteristic makes and the anodizing thing to aid in wear rate can make ti a great choice for knife applications in handles and other parts. The lighter weight is also another factor that makes it appealing as well as the fact that it is corrosion resistant to an extreme and does not really require heat treating in an oven to work with it.
 
Trying to justify the price for a hard use folder such as a sng, or someday an xm-18 3" (when I find one for under $500). Whats the point of carying these heavier bullet proof knives for 400 dollars plus if the lock is going to wear out. I don't want these knives not to be reliable and make all the tough material, tolerances and construction be for nothing because of the lock wear and blade play. I know a basic model buck 110 will take a beating and last a lifetime which I would expect out of the higher end models, so I would hope to get way more than 10+years out of say an sng or xm-18 for the price. I would go with an axis lock but just think benchmade is way overpriced for the materials they use.
 
I have yet to see or hear of a nice frame lock that wore out over use. Could anyone point me in the direction of a source that proves otherwise. I really am curious.
 
FWIW, Chris Reeve has stated that he's never had to repair one of his knives because the lock just wore out. All the problems he's seen are with the user trying to modify the lock. I haven't heard of Hinderer having that problem either. Strider locks, on the other hand, seem to wear out all the time.
 
Not sure you'd really need to do it on a quality titanium framelock, but you could get the contact surface carbidized if you want some peace of mind.
 
Jonsa said:
wondering how long titanium framlocks last from wear and a lot of use such as in a hinderer or strider. Just trying to figure out how a softer titanium lasts rubbing against a steel blade over time. I know weaker liner locks dont wear that bad because it is steel against steel. Hoping to hear an opinion from someone that has used these 400 dollar plus knives the way they were designed for, over a long period of time.
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In nutshell; you will never wear it out (since you ask)
and even if you did, you would afford another after wearing it out
 
I have been looking at the new zero tolerance hinderer collaberation 0551 as a cheaper alternative for titanium framelock, but they seem to be having a lot of trouble with blade play on the framelock and people having to adjust the lock themselves. hopefully they will corrected this problem with the 0550. Anyways thanks for the input
 
stjames said:
Could you expand on that blanket generalization for us?
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Not trying to ruffle any feathers, so I'll just say one of my friends gave me an explanation that made sense to me and I will repeat it here: Given the same materials and tolerances within the lock itself a well designed linerlock also adds a rigid scale that, when stresses reach a pint where metal begins to flex, will take on some portion of the stress. It makes sense to me that additional material adding rigidity to the metal would increase the strength of the lock. I may well be wrong as I am not an engineer and I have not performed any definitive tests.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Not trying to ruffle any feathers, so I'll just say one of my friends gave me an explanation that made sense to me and I will repeat it here: Given the same materials and tolerances within the lock itself a well designed linerlock also adds a rigid scale that, when stresses reach a pint where metal begins to flex, will take on some portion of the stress. It makes sense to me that additional material adding rigidity to the metal would increase the strength of the lock. I may well be wrong as I am not an engineer and I have not performed any definitive tests.
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I also believe that frame lock is stronger than linerlock. Mostly because framelock uses Ti-Steel combination, which has higher cohesion compared to Steel-Steel used in most liner-locks. Linerlocks with Ti-Steel combination still have smaller contact area compared to framelocks and have shorter life compared to Steel-Steel linerlocks.
I do not particularly like them anyway. They may last the lifetime, or may have a bladeplay, fail or just wear out quite fast. AXIS, Button-lock, Arc-lock, Triad-lock or even back-lock (practically, any other lock) may also have their issues, but less surprises.
 
There is no way to make a blanket statement about framelocks vs. linerlocks. Any comparison depends absolutely on the specific facts.

As far as never wearing out a framelock and never needing repairs, I will mention that one of my framelock knives developed a little bit of vertical play - after 15 years of use. It was "corrected" for free by the maker, which probably only involved replacing the stop pin with a very slightly larger diameter pin, so I don't know whether that would be considered a "repair" or not. I expect to get at least another 15 years of use beofe it needs any attention.
 
I know this is anold thread but was curious about this topic after checking out the latest from ZT and noticed they"improved" my 560 model with a steel plate at the lock bar. After reading this and other threads I am beginning to think this is more a marketing gimmick to solve a non existing issue that may be more of a myth in the knife world than reality. I too cannot recall a single story of someones titanium frame lock failing from wear. Granted, I read usually specific issues that have less to do with this particular topic and have heard that Strider had issues but again no first person stories. It does seem logical that ti would grip the steel better and may explain why the ZT 200 with heavy duty steel liners could fail with mild spine whacks wheras their ti frame locks did not.
I too thought and still believe that a steel liner should be the stronger lock despite popular belief but this obviously depends on its execution, specifically, whether it stays rather than slides like the ZT 200. Why do I think this? As the fellow above stated , the scale supports the liner from flexing or bowing out for one. Secondly, the liner prevents most direct contact with ones hand grip which could possibly cause movement of the lock bar itself . Finally, just as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link so is a lock bar and all the ti lock bars I have seen are thinned out dramatically for ease of use whereas steel liners are not. Finally, I am quite confident that the quality steel is both stronger and tougher then even 6/4 Ti. For example, in the mountain bike world this hi end titanium is often used for lighter weight components such as after market pedal spindles but they are generally accepted to be for lightr weight racers and not heavier guys or freeriders, these guys stick with steel components. I am speaking of strength and toughness on a equal volume basis and not weight or items of equal size. My ti frame lock is no thicker than most steel liners. I guess one could argue that the ti frame lock is still thicker for a large portion and that it would be less likely to flex but then the steel liner is the same all the way and perhaps this helps spread the forces more evenly where the titanium would obviously concentrate that energy at the thick/thin transition creating a stress riser. Ugh, this is complicated. Ultimately, I still don't think a steel plate is needed for a ti frame lock.
 
lumberjake said:
I know this is anold thread but was curious about this topic after checking out the latest from ZT and noticed they"improved" my 560 model with a steel plate at the lock bar. After reading this and other threads I am beginning to think this is more a marketing gimmick to solve a non existing issue that may be more of a myth in the knife world than reality. I too cannot recall a single story of someones titanium frame lock failing from wear. Granted, I read usually specific issues that have less to do with this particular topic and have heard that Strider had issues but again no first person stories. It does seem logical that ti would grip the steel better and may explain why the ZT 200 with heavy duty steel liners could fail with mild spine whacks wheras their ti frame locks did not.
I too thought and still believe that a steel liner should be the stronger lock despite popular belief but this obviously depends on its execution, specifically, whether it stays rather than slides like the ZT 200. Why do I think this? As the fellow above stated , the scale supports the liner from flexing or bowing out for one. Secondly, the liner prevents most direct contact with ones hand grip which could possibly cause movement of the lock bar itself . Finally, just as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link so is a lock bar and all the ti lock bars I have seen are thinned out dramatically for ease of use whereas steel liners are not. Finally, I am quite confident that the quality steel is both stronger and tougher then even 6/4 Ti. For example, in the mountain bike world this hi end titanium is often used for lighter weight components such as after market pedal spindles but they are generally accepted to be for lightr weight racers and not heavier guys or freeriders, these guys stick with steel components. I am speaking of strength and toughness on a equal volume basis and not weight or items of equal size. My ti frame lock is no thicker than most steel liners. I guess one could argue that the ti frame lock is still thicker for a large portion and that it would be less likely to flex but then the steel liner is the same all the way and perhaps this helps spread the forces more evenly where the titanium would obviously concentrate that energy at the thick/thin transition creating a stress riser. Ugh, this is complicated. Ultimately, I still don't think a steel plate is needed for a ti frame lock.
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I think it is a stretch to think that a frame lock bar, which is only thin for 1/4" or so, is as flexible overall as a liner which is thin its entire length.

Another factor that doesn't get much discussion is lock engagement angles. ZT has some strangely steep engagement. Shallow engagement angles (those closest to perpendicular to the lock bar), like CRK uses, are both stronger and are less likely to wear because of increased surface area. Walker has said more than once that an awful lot of companies using his design don't understand it and have the engagement all wrong.
 
RX-79G said:
I think it is a stretch to think that a frame lock bar, which is only thin for 1/4" or so, is as flexible overall as a liner which is thin its entire length.

Another factor that doesn't get much discussion is lock engagement angles. ZT has some strangely steep engagement. Shallow engagement angles (those closest to perpendicular to the lock bar), like CRK uses, are both stronger and are less likely to wear because of increased surface area. Walker has said more than once that an awful lot of companies using his design don't understand it and have the engagement all wrong.
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Actually this is heavily disputed. Many makers including i believe ernest emerson feel that increasing surface area of the lockface is the enemy. If you look at a lot of frame locks with a wide lockbar many fo them are ground on an angle not just side to side bit e lockface of the blade is longer at he front of the lock and if you look at the lockface it only is making contact with a small portion of that lockface. Imho right and wrong is a relative term.
 
There's a member here with a heavily used benchmade frame lock, i'm not sure the model. Anyhow it's obviously been used and carried for many years, I want to say 10 or more years and it's still tight according to the user. No frame lock over extender preventer thingy and no lock face insert.
 
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