Titanium scale folder balance

[WeekSecret]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to knife and I'm looking for my first EDC folder. I want it similar to the blade on a Leatherman Surge. So far I found the Zero tolerance 450 and the CRKT Up and at em.

A buddy of mine showed me his collection, explaining what he liked and hated with each one. I know now that I really like flipper and don't like "blade heavy" knife, the kind that tend to fell off your hand because the handle is too light.

Now I have a couple question;

Does the titanium scale on the zt 450 will make it too blade heavy?

Should I go first with the CRKT to learn and practice about sharpening and maintenance?

Do you have any other slender stainless flipper folder to recommand?

Do you have any advice you would have liked to heard when you where novice?

 

[Sergeua]

It's usually good when you grip a folder and it's balanced right where your index finger lands. Or it could be a bit back at times and still not a big issue. There are knives that are perfectly balanced and they are designed with balance in mind and the kind of materials used on board are already taken into consideration.
The zt 450 is perfectly fine with titanium.

 

[WeekSecret]

It's usually good when you grip a folder and it's balanced right where your index finger lands. Or it could be a bit back at times and still not a big issue. There are knives that are perfectly balanced and they are designed with balance in mind and the kind of materials used on board are already taken into consideration.
The zt 450 is perfectly fine with titanium.

I'm not sure what you mean by "be a bit back". The knife in question was balanced at about where the handle finish, it didn't feel like an extension of your hand at all.

 

[RousingRabbles]

For a titanium flipper around the same price as the 0450 check out the Quiet Carry IQ

 

[NG VI]

Civivi Nox sounds kind of perfect for you, it's probably the same price as the CRKT or not much more. I would personally probably not buy a CRKT again in my lifetime, while I'll get a Civivi just because the design or some element of it looks particularly nice.

 

[WeekSecret]

Civivi Nox sounds kind of perfect for you, it's probably the same price as the CRKT or not much more. I would personally probably not buy a CRKT again in my lifetime, while I'll get a Civivi just because the design or some element of it looks particularly nice.

An elegant, yet subtuly agressive knife that look professional. No doubt a decent performer, yet still budget friendly.

You sir just found exactly what I didn't knew I was looking for. That's the one I'll buy, I'm not searching anymore.

Thank you

 

[Stwida]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to knife and I'm looking for my first EDC folder. I want it similar to the blade on a Leatherman Surge. So far I found the Zero tolerance 450 and the CRKT Up and at em.

A buddy of mine showed me his collection, explaining what he liked and hated with each one. I know now that I really like flipper and don't like "blade heavy" knife, the kind that tend to fell off your hand because the handle is too light.

Now I have a couple question;

Does the titanium scale on the zt 450 will make it too blade heavy?

Should I go first with the CRKT to learn and practice about sharpening and maintenance?

Do you have any other slender stainless flipper folder to recommand?

Do you have any advice you would have liked to heard when you where novice?

The 0450 is an amazing knife, and definitely great for a starter.

Remember, especially with most of the higher-end manufacturers, most of them know what they're doing and aren't going to put TI on a knife without making sure it makes sense.

Only when you start getting into REALLY expensive stuff does "Form" generally start to take precedence over "Function".

 

[NG VI]

I'm glad the recommendation was a hit, it sounded like the knife with the blend of things you were looking for and at a less intimidating price than a ZT

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

IMO, the Sinkevich flipper is much better knife than the Civivi and the blade is longer.
I‘m personally not too fond of metal frame but they are also CF versions.
‘Those can be found little bit cheaper. The NOx isn’t bad knife at all, just comparing ergos to the ZT
I think they a not so good mainly because the knife is smaller, won’t be so comfortable as the ZT.
Balancewise I don’t think someone can beat Sinkevich but it could be just me…

 

[Chronovore]

Hello everyone, I'm fairly new to knife and I'm looking for my first EDC folder. I want it similar to the blade on a Leatherman Surge. So far I found the Zero tolerance 450 and the CRKT Up and at em.

A buddy of mine showed me his collection, explaining what he liked and hated with each one. I know now that I really like flipper and don't like "blade heavy" knife, the kind that tend to fell off your hand because the handle is too light.

Now I have a couple question;

Does the titanium scale on the zt 450 will make it too blade heavy?

Should I go first with the CRKT to learn and practice about sharpening and maintenance?

Do you have any other slender stainless flipper folder to recommand?

Do you have any advice you would have liked to heard when you where novice?

Definitely stick with more budget-friendly knives for exploring your interests. I wouldn't spend over $100 or so until you've really spent some time exploring what you like and discovering what you don't like in an EDC folder.

Of course, there are some amazing budget knives out there and I often EDC them over my more expensive knives. The trick is to find good budget knives. That said, don't bother with CRKT or anything in 8Cr13Mov. It's 2021 and there are much better choices. Speaking of...

Civivi Nox sounds kind of perfect for you, it's probably the same price as the CRKT or not much more. I would personally probably not buy a CRKT again in my lifetime, while I'll get a Civivi just because the design or some element of it looks particularly nice.

The Nox is more expensive but still "budget" and certainly a better knife. The question is whether size matters. That CRKT has almost an inch more blade. If that doesn't matter, the blade on the Nox has a better grind and will be a much better slicer. If it has to be a framelock, the OP might also want to check out the Civivi Perf.

Personally, I'd be open to liner locks. They work well. Any actual difference in lock strength feels academic, as any action that would actually test lock strength between the two is not something that should be done with a folding knife in the first place. While frame locks can vary in the following respect, I like that liner locks largely eliminate grip tension as a factor in action.

BTW, Civivi gets mentioned a lot for a reason. Here is a link to all their current flipper-actuated knives at BladeHQ. Have fun window shopping!

https://www.bladehq.com/cat--CIVIVI--3293#/filter:eek:pener:Flipper

 

[Chronovore]

An elegant, yet subtuly agressive knife that look professional. No doubt a decent performer, yet still budget friendly.

You sir just found exactly what I didn't knew I was looking for. That's the one I'll buy, I'm not searching anymore.

Thank you

I wrote my last post before I saw this. Please come back and tell us how it works out for you once you've spent some EDC time with it.

 

[Gilbert G]

I'd go with the Jettison by CRKT. Fantastic knife for the price and wreaks quality. Can't remember if it is blade heavy. Could be but want to say no since the body is full stainless. You get a wicked cool shape, very comfortable in hands due to contoured scales and deep carry pocket clip. The flipper works good too. Not sure if it is the best hard user since a little smooth but that is also its plus as well.

Civivi makes decent knives but I'd never prefer them over a USA-based brand like ZT or CRKT or Kershaw. Kershaw also has a few newer and older stainless frame locks you could explore as well at that budget price.

For advice I'd like to have heard when I was a novice? The same advice I read on the forums a few months ago. "Bypass the other stuff and go straight to customs". Since I'm still not into customs now (only due to current financial constraints), I would amend this advice and say "Bypass the other stuff and go straight to high level midtechs or half midtechs/customs." If not, you'll end up wondering why it took you so long to get here. Guess that's the fun of the hobby though and the journey. It is good however when you are just starting out and not sure you want to jump fully into the hobby or explore the many different designs and locks and see which is for you, to go the budget route and like another said, explore this with under $100. Nowadays there are many good knives to be explored.

GL

 

[Chronovore]

... Civivi makes decent knives but I'd never prefer them over a USA-based brand like ZT or CRKT or Kershaw. Kershaw also has a few newer and older stainless frame locks you could explore as well at that budget price. ...

Why? Does USA-based really matter if the knife is still made in China? The Chinese-made knives from brands like Kershaw and CRKT have largely fallen behind the times. I don't know how much of this has been the lack of competition at the Walmart sporting goods counter, but they have been very slow to innovate versus a growing number of Chinese brands.

For instance, Kershaw and CRKT are still using 8Cr13Mov (or worse) at prices where Chinese brands are using 9Cr18Mov, D2, and 14C28N (which was ironically once exclusive to Kershaw). For the prices where Kershaw and CRKT are still pushing janky assisted actions, Chinese brands are offering great manual actions on caged ball bearings. Some of those Chinese brands, including Sencut (WE's next level down from Civivi) and Petrified Fish are even offering ceramic bearings on knives under $50.

Besides materials, there are a lot of good designs coming out of China including collaborations with great designers from around the world. The WE-made knives in particular tend to have good grinds. Some of the Chinese brands also have good customer service. The point is, these Chinese brands (which sprung up in part due to American and other companies outsourcing in the first place) are innovating and delivering vastly superior products at very competitive prices. Now, I only look to America for customs and premium production knives such as the TRM Atom.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Personally, I'd be open to liner locks. They work well. Any actual difference in lock strength feels academic, as any action that would actually test lock strength between the two is not something that should be done with a folding knife in the first place. While frame locks can vary in the following respect, I like that liner locks largely eliminate grip tension as a factor in action.

100% agree. IMO it can't be said better.

For instance, Kershaw and CRKT are still using 8Cr13Mov (or worse) at prices where Chinese brands are using 9Cr18Mov, D2, and 14C28N (which was ironically once exclusive to Kershaw). For the prices where Kershaw and CRKT are still pushing janky assisted actions, Chinese brands are offering great manual actions on caged ball bearings. Some of those Chinese brands, including Sencut (WE's next level down from Civivi) and Petrified Fish are even offering ceramic bearings on knives under $50.

Besides materials, there are a lot of good designs coming out of China including collaborations with great designers from around the world.

I will disagree here... Listed "Chinese" steels compared to the same "Chinese" steels used by Kershaw and CRKT because they like to keep the price low, are still nothing special,
I'll separate the D2 because it is better working steel than any of the listed.

In terms of the "Chinese" designs, just look at your sentence - Designs, results of cohabitations with "designers from around the world" are not "coming from China" anyway you're looking at it.
Mentioned Kershaw and CRKT have great designs and recognizable profiles. They are inexpensive knives by design, accordingly you cannot expect some materials from the latest folder fashion wave.
On the other hand latest Chinese knifes, with some exceptions of course, are mostly faceless, they all look the same, with the same pointless finger choils shortening the blade's edge, triangular holes instead of round ones,
frame locks with clips falling over it and lock bar cutoffs catching on your pocket and such. Yes, their quality and materials are very good and yes, there are very nice Chinese knives but they are mostly because of the colabs...
I can only name one Chinese designer that was listed somewhere in I believe Two Sun site, everything else are designs by colabs - bloggers, vloggers, IG characters and so on.
Of course I could be mistaking here. I'd like to be corrected so I can learn something new, like who is behind the design of your favorite, let's say - Civivi knives ?
I don't mind at all Chinese designers, I just can't see one, producing recognizable models as the one let's say Kershaw is making.

The statement about the AO is also incorrect I think. AO mechanism is there by purpose, it has nothing to do with your knife having bearings or washers. You choose AO if you like to eliminate some variables
from firing the blade till it locks, that's it. It's a purpose created mechanism, just as the full Auto and the OTF, nothing else.
You choose bearings or washers according to your flipping likings, those are two completely different things.
AOs have small learning curve and most of the users which don't have some certain priorities do not use it, or like it or understand it... Lots of manufacturers are exploring current trends and you'll see frame locks that are particularly picky
to open when you're touching the lock bar, installing AO as a "tactical" feature, resulting if absolutely normal user frustration when they do not work as intended simply because of the frame lock construction.
Well executed knife with AO can serve you long time without absolutely any issues, just as this little Heiho I bough when they release it.

The statement about the bearings vs washers is some how opinionated I think. The same Heiho you've see above, opened numerous bags of Concrete mix without slightest issue with the washers.
Washers are great if you like to adjust the friction of your blade at the pivot, I personally prefer my blade not to move under its own weight,
like it little bit tighter because I ride the blade to lock position and almost never flip it.
Such adjustment is hardly possible with bearing, not to mention that after the third bag of mix they'll start malfunctioning because of the concrete dust in it.
I don't really care if they are ceramic or something else, to me bearings are mostly to justify price point.
Yes, they are fun to use, a great and smooth fidget factor when you're firing your blade, but they are people that are falling for this stuff and people that not, it all depends of your priorities.

 

[Chronovore]

I will disagree here... Listed "Chinese" steels compared to the same "Chinese" steels used by Kershaw and CRKT because they like to keep the price low, are still nothing special,
I'll separate the D2 because it is better working steel than any of the listed.

In terms of the "Chinese" designs, just look at your sentence - Designs, results of cohabitations with "designers from around the world" are not "coming from China" anyway you're looking at it.
Mentioned Kershaw and CRKT have great designs and recognizable profiles. They are inexpensive knives by design, accordingly you cannot expect some materials from the latest folder fashion wave.
On the other hand latest Chinese knifes, with some exceptions of course, are mostly faceless, they all look the same, with the same pointless finger choils shortening the blade's edge, triangular holes instead of round ones,
frame locks with clips falling over it and lock bar cutoffs catching on your pocket and such. Yes, their quality and materials are very good and yes, there are very nice Chinese knives but they are mostly because of the colabs...
I can only name one Chinese designer that was listed somewhere in I believe Two Sun site, everything else are designs by colabs - bloggers, vloggers, IG characters and so on.
Of course I could be mistaking here. I'd like to be corrected so I can learn something new, like who is behind the design of your favorite, let's say - Civivi knives ?
I don't mind at all Chinese designers, I just can't see one, producing recognizable models as the one let's say Kershaw is making.

The statement about the AO is also incorrect I think. AO mechanism is there by purpose, it has nothing to do with your knife having bearings or washers. You choose AO if you like to eliminate some variables
from firing the blade till it locks, that's it. It's a purpose created mechanism, just as the full Auto and the OTF, nothing else.
You choose bearings or washers according to your flipping likings, those are two completely different things.
AOs have small learning curve and most of the users which don't have some certain priorities do not use it, or like it or understand it... Lots of manufacturers are exploring current trends and you'll see frame locks that are particularly picky
to open when you're touching the lock bar, installing AO as a "tactical" feature, resulting if absolutely normal user frustration when they do not work as intended simply because of the frame lock construction.
Well executed knife with AO can serve you long time without absolutely any issues, just as this little Heiho I bough when they release it.



The statement about the bearings vs washers is some how opinionated I think. The same Heiho you've see above, opened numerous bags of Concrete mix without slightest issue with the washers.
Washers are great if you like to adjust the friction of your blade at the pivot, I personally prefer my blade not to move under its own weight,
like it little bit tighter because I ride the blade to lock position and almost never flip it.
Such adjustment is hardly possible with bearing, not to mention that after the third bag of mix they'll start malfunctioning because of the concrete dust in it.
I don't really care if they are ceramic or something else, to me bearings are mostly to justify price point.
Yes, they are fun to use, a great and smooth fidget factor when you're firing your blade, but they are people that are falling for this stuff and people that not, it all depends of your priorities.

There is a lot to dig into here so bear with me...

First on steel, I'm a little confused about your comment. Do Kershaw, CRKT, etc. keep using 8Cr13Mov (or worse) in their Chinese-made knives to "keep the price low" or because that's what they think will sell at the given price? My point was that a lot of the Chinese brands are using much better steels at similar prices.

To be fair, when a Kershaw in 8Cr13Mov gets down to like $20, I think that's a reasonable steel for the money. However, such companies often use 8Cr13Mov in knives costing upwards of $50. Once you get up past $30, 8Cr13Mov becomes an increasingly bad deal versus a variety of better budget steels being offered by the Chinese brands. Consider examples such as 9Cr18Mov, AR-RPM9, Acuto 440, 14C28N, and D2. All of those offer better edge retention. With the exception of D2, they also offer much better corrosion resistance for people in situations where that matters.

Probably the best examples are the Civivi and Sencut knives costing roughly $40-60. They use 9Cr18Mov with WE's excellent heat treatment. The edge retention of these knives generally surpasses Spyderco's VG-10 and starts to nip at the heels of Chinese-made knives in S35VN. The point is that the market has come a long way in this category. The Chinese brands are leading with this trend while Kershaw, CRKT, Gerber, etc. haven't moved much.

On action, it's worth noting that I carried AO knives almost exclusively between 2000 and maybe 2016. Taking a historical view, AO served a purpose back when good manual actions were either more expensive or harder to find. Neither of those things are now true. Even sub-$20 Chinese knives in junk steel like 3Cr13 or 5Cr15 often come with caged bearings and decent manual action.

That history and the proliferation of bearings should explain why I chose them as my example. I'm not opposed to washers and there can certainly be reasons to prefer them. We've also seen some decent manual actions on washers coming out of China. I'm only arguing from the perspective of manual versus assisted action. Other issues with assisted action include more parts to fail, more detailed maintenance, having to overcome the resistance when closing, and slop. The latter is something that became obvious to me after mostly converting to manual actions. A lot of my Speedsafe knives don't break from a crisp detent but have slop before engaging the assist. It might be a personal quirk but I don't like it.

On designs, feel free to load up all the models from Civivi, Kizer, or Bestech and compare them with Kershaw, CRKT, and Gerber. Is the latter really better than the former? It's not just the collaborations, though I think both their existence and the diversity of included designers would be points in favor of the Chinese companies. Some of my favorite knives are in-house designs from Chinese companies, such as the Baklash, Naja, and Riffle.

Another thing to consider is fit and finish. Having taken apart, inspected, and occasionally tinkered with a ridiculous number of knives from all of the companies mentioned here (and more), Civivi was a breath of fresh air at the budget level when they first came out. The Chinese-made knives I've had from Kershaw, CRKT, and Gerber are just not on the same level as the WE-made knives.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Well, first on steel. Yes, I don't see other reason budget knives as CRKT and the lower shelf Kershaw knives to use 13mov steel other than low cost.
Nothing wrong with my opinion, most companies like inexpensive products because they sell volume of those.
About Kershaw, all their US made knives are using 14C28N and better steels and in fact, I just went to their website and there are roughly half of all available steels in 8Cr13mov, everything else is just higher grade,
so I don't really know why we are talking about Kershaw in the mix... I suspect there is similar situation with CRKT.

My point was that the listed in you other post 9Cr18Mov and 14C28N used by the current Chinese low budget knives you're comparing to CRKT and Kershaw,
are nothing really special, those steels are all made in the same place and most likely HT in the same factories and they are not even close to S30V except in some YouTube tests that I dismiss simply because my experience tells me otherwise...

On action, I don't understand why you are still mixing AO with washers and bearings, and even with opening action at all... Isn't it clear that when you have AO, you in fact do not have any participation in the opening action as
you would when you are flicking or riding the blade to locking point ? Why are you bringing up all the talk about the washers and bearings, their smooth or not so smooth action have nothing to do with the purpose of the AO,
which just as the purpose of the Auto opening or OTF, is to eliminate human factor during this action.
I'm not against bearings, even I prefer washers. I know for a fact that bearings give you very smooth action, I never argued against it, I have knives with bearings ad I like the opening action, I have no problem with it, but AO is completely different story,
as I mentioned - because of user's priority...
I will also disagree about the maintenance of the AO. I have few of them and first of all, the parts are not much more, it is funny to bring this point when we are talking about a single torsion bar in most cases.
The only AO knives I disassembled were the Hissatsu, so I can show how to adjust the torsion so it wont rub in the liner, it was a thread in this forum years ago, and my low budget Kershaw Shield, that due to my mishandling broke the spring and they send me a new one. Except those two, any other AO knife I own is never being disassembled or malfunctioned so based on my experience I cannot agree with you, especially when you don't provide examples of problems with your particular models you're saying you had...
On design I asked you specifically who is the designer of your favorite Civivi knife... You've listed three names of Civivi models. Since I 'm not so familiar with the brand, I'll ask you again - are those three names designer's names or names of the models ?
Who designed the models in case we don't know if this is a known designer ? Civivi ?
My personal opinion, because this is what we share here - opinions, is that only the Riffle have some original lines and attractive blade geometry, both other designs have the ridicules finger choil and nothing special as a handle geometry, nor steel ...
The only good thing I see in those two is that they are at least over 3" in blade length, but again - it's my opinion, sure there are people that like to have 2.75" overall blades with .5" finger choil cut off, more power to them, I don't mind.
About the new Chinese low budget companies as Civivi designs, I was looking at the Imperium today and was wondering why people like it. It's a great budget knife, no doubt about it, but it's so boring and small that I cannot imagine how can I be using it
not to mentioned that their clip even useful are just plain fugly and cheap looking...
When we get to the $100 and above shelf, yes, they are some attractive folders as design, but again - they are not original to the company, they are colabs with other designers, simple as this, that's why I asked if someone can point to original,
lets say - Two Sun designer, actual person working for the company, not outside colabs...

On fit and finish I never argued about anything, where did you see me criticizing Chinese fit a nd finish ? In fact I specifically said that fit and finish for most Chinese companies, even the cheap lines, is very good, never doubt it, and never will.
We gave them long time ago the know how and standards for quality control, what you expect from them, especially when they work for themselves ? And when you're bringing up the F&F, you've keep mixing Civivi and WE, they are two different shelves, not the same quality.
But again, nobody goes over the models on the website and thinks "Gee, this fit and finish of the Titanium and CF inlays is so good on the picture, let me just buy this Chinese knife for $160 bucks..." You buy knife mostly because of the design, the geometry of the blade, proportions to the handle, what you prefer to be handle geometry and materials and steel, not fit and finish. In fact those are the last two things you can actually evaluate only when you receive the knife, simply because most of the good fit and finish Chinese knives are only available online, you can't fiddle with them as you can do it in the brick and mortar store...

So this is what I think on those subjects, I hope you don't take it as arguing and give me another long post basically not having much answers to my questions... I'm not looking at changing anyone's opinion on Chinese knives, their quality, so called designs or market policies in this country... You like Civivi - more power to you my friend, I agree with some of your points, but I think you're just not going to a straight statement ( not answer, because my questions are mostly rhetorical, I don't really care who is their designer even I like some of the mid-grade Chinese models...)
Cheers, and have a nice Holidays !

 

[Chronovore]

Well, first on steel. Yes, I don't see other reason budget knives as CRKT and the lower shelf Kershaw knives to use 13mov steel other than low cost.
Nothing wrong with my opinion, most companies like inexpensive products because they sell volume of those...

This started with my response to Gilbert, who said "... Civivi makes decent knives but I'd never prefer them over a USA-based brand like ZT or CRKT or Kershaw..." I had earlier joined in the sentiment that the OP should stay away from CRKT or knives in 8Cr13Mov.

Whether steel, action, or overall fit and finish; the issue is quality relative to the price tag. My point is that Civivi and other Chinese companies are driving innovation, offering some needed competition, and largely offering a better deal.

On steel specifically, I'm not knocking the American-made Kershaws in 14C28N or other decent steels. I was specifically knocking their Chinese-made knives in 8Cr13Mov (or lesser members of that series). However, my argument there would also apply to the 420HC on base-models of the Link and Dividend.

As far as those steels being made in the same place, 14C28N is Swedish and Acuto 440 is Japanese. While the other steels are made in China, there are important differences in composition between 8Cr13Mov and 9Cr18Mov. For whatever it's worth, AR-RPM9 is made using a different process. (I think it's the first PM budget steel.) As far as being heat-treated in the same place, there are different companies doing heat treatments in China. Did you miss my comment about WE's heat treatment of 9Cr18Mov?

Now, which YouTube tests are you dismissing? How many have you actually watched? In your own experiences, which apparently don't include any of WE's 9Cr18Mov, what kinds of use and how much use have you given each steel? Did those experiences take you through multiple sharpenings? That matters when evaluating the performance of a given steel.

To put it another way, if you haven't tried Civivi's 9Cr18Mov, why not give it a shot? Find out firsthand if what I'm saying based on my experiences or what a YouTube cut tester found is really true.

On action specifically, recall the historical perspective I offered. The main purpose of AO wasn't "taking humanity out of the equation". Participation is still required. In fact, two of my complaints about AO specifically address participation in the action: slop or play prior to engaging the assist on some models and needing to overcome the resistance of the assist in closing. The main purpose or benefit to AO was to do the job of a fast one-handed action in the absence or scarcity of good manual action during a time when good manual action was less common or more expensive.

By contrast, good manual action is now cheap and common. So from that perspective, AO is no longer contributing much. However, it does still come with the potential problems I mentioned. On the problems, recall that I've had a lot of AO knives. I've had a lot of them apart. I've done maintenance on several. I've only ever broken two torsion bars. However, I have had to adjust a few AO mechanisms. I've had to clean them out. too There are more things to go wrong. There are extra steps in maintenance. (For instance, did you remember to grease that torsion bar? They can rattle if you only use oil.)

On Design, you seemed to be saying that it's only the collaborations that are good. I mentioned the three models I did because they were not collaborations with known designers. They were in-house designs. I like them and I thought you had asked for examples. Design is obviously the most subjective category here.

On Fit and Finish, I've used the term "WE-made" to refer to both Civivi and Sencut since they are both made by WE. For those who don't know, WE recently spun off the Sencut brand to handle their lower-tier knives in 9Cr18Mov and D2. Civivi has been re-positioned as a middle tier and has started using more 14C28N and Nitro-V. I've tried to keep the comparisons fair, such as specifying the $40-60 window when comparing 8Cr13Mov to 9Cr18Mov.

You're right about not being able to handle product from a lot of the Chinese brands in a store. It's not just fit and finish but also ergonomics. You'll never really know for sure until you get a particular knife in hand. Before getting there, you've got reviews and feedback from your friends on Blade Forums. Luckily, some of us are real nuts who love taking things apart and tinkering. Speaking of, it's time for me to go mess with a new Spyderco...

Merry Christmas!

 

[WeekSecret]

Okay now I did a bit of research and it seem the Nitro-V steel is pretty close AEB-L, wich seem to be a good steel for the price.

I currently own a Leatherman Surge with a blade in 420HC and I think AEB-L is better? Can anyone confirm?

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

if you haven't tried Civivi's 9Cr18Mov, why not give it a shot?

No, and honestly I'm not intending to simply because the Civivi models I find worth spending money as desirable designs, are not using that steel.
The one model I got uses Nitro V and I don't have any complaints about it.
However, I did try ton's of this steel, some well HTed, some - not. I find it suitable for everyday stuff but not for my line of work, mainly because of the sharpening, it has to be done more often.
That's why I moved to much better steels as S90V and M4, again - we are talking about subjective stuff, they work great for me, someone else may find them too expensive or not needed...

The main purpose of AO wasn't "taking humanity out of the equation".

I never said this.

two of my complaints about AO takes over between you push the blade out, till it locks the blade. The spring takes over when you don't have control over the blade. It's more reliable,
stronger than human interaction and gives you better feedback if the blade is locked. Nothing else. It's not done so much for convenience but more or less in tactical applications.
IMO, everything else is just elaboration aside of the real purpose of the AO. You see it the way you see it, I'm fine with this, but I'm here to tell you that all this talk about more parts, better and smoother action of the manual opening ans such things are either not related to the AO properties or not true. All my AO knives require zero maintenance, blowing lint once in a while and that's it, no opening or lubricating, they just work and most of them are really low shelf models - CRKT and Kershaw.
takes over between you push the blade out, till it locks the blade. The spring takes over when you don't have control over the blade. It's more reliable,
stronger than human interaction and gives you better feedback if the blade is locked. Nothing else. It's not done so much for convenience but more or less in tactical applications.
IMO, everything else is just elaboration aside of the real purpose of the AO. You see it the way you see it, I'm fine with this, but I'm here to tell you that all this talk about more parts, better and smoother action of the manual opening ans such things are either not related to the AO properties or not true. All my AO knives require zero maintenance, blowing lint once in a while and that's it, no opening or lubricating, they just work and most of them are really low shelf models - CRKT and Kershaw.
O specifically address participation in the action: slop or play prior to engaging the assist on some models and needing to overcome the resistance of the assist in closing. The main purpose or benefit to AO was to do the job of a fast one-handed action in the absence or scarcity of good manual action during a time when good manual action was less common or more expensive.

AO takes over between you push the blade out, till it locks the blade. The spring takes over when you don't have control over the blade if you don't ride the thumb stud till the blade locks. This is all it does. It's more reliable and
stronger than human interaction and gives you better feedback if the blade is locked. Nothing else. It's not done so much for convenience but more or less in tactical applications.
IMO, everything else is just elaboration aside of the real purpose of the AO. You see it the way you see it, I'm fine with this, but I'm here to tell you that all this talk about more parts, better and smoother action of the manual opening and such things are either not related to the actual AO properties or not true. All my AO knives require zero maintenance for years, blowing lint once in a while and that's it, no opening or lubricating, they just work and most of them are really low shelf models - CRKT and Kershaw.

Another important point IMO: When I look at knife as the Hissatsu, I'm not interested of price point or how I will close the knife after the use. Those are not priorities. I'm sure you will understand.

On Fit and Finish, I've used the term "WE-made" to refer to both Civivi and Sencut since they are both made by WE. For those who don't know, WE recently spun off the Sencut brand to handle their lower-tier knives in 9Cr18Mov and D2. Civivi has been re-positioned as a middle tier and has started using more 14C28N and Nitro-V. I've tried to keep the comparisons fair, such as specifying the $40-60 window when comparing 8Cr13Mov to 9Cr18Mov.

WE are great knives, I like lot's of their models and have no issues with the company or their designs. I think you are keep associating their lower line Civivi with them because of the quality, but they are not the same.
My Imperium ( I believe this is what I got), have marks on the liners from the stamping. They are black coated with some thick paint that hides those, but if you remove the paint you'll see it. Poorly grinded lock face onthe blade, sometimes its overheated Cheap looking clip, screws with lottery quality and so on. To me those are not important things, I can live with those especially for the price they sell it.
I just want to bring it up - you can't talk about Civivi quality and associate it with the mother ship WE, they are two different levels of quality.
That's why they acquired Sencut, which existed from fairly long time, manufacturing few knock off looking models along the rest of their line, just as you said - to position Civivi in the middle so they can blend the quality difference and I guarantee you, soon you will see price increase in Civivi products. It's just their marketing politics, I have no issue with it at all and frankly I'm not interested simply because I can be only interested of few WE models that I like, everything else is not suitable for me as design or steel. This doesn't mean I trash Civivi or Sencut, not at all. I'm sure they are good knives for the price point and will have lots of fans, I see nothing wrong in this except you'll be sending money to the Communists but let's not make this political...

About the design... It's obvious nobody can produce name. Even you, who like so much Civivi can't name who is the designer of your favorite knife in third post.
As I said - I'mnot interested much of this aspect but as general thoughts: I looked up few models that I like. Let's pick the Kubey Dandy. In Amazon description it is listed as being designed by "Max".
So who is this mystical Max ? Is Max is of Kubey team or it is another bloger/vloger colab ?
Another example - The designer of Two Sun TS 301D2 is listed as "Mazwan Mocthtar" Didn't dig who this guy is but if Two Sun can list some of the designers, why Civivi cannot ?
I'm interested of such info and it's missing for probably 80% of the higher end of the mentioned Chinese mid and higher end knives. My opinion is that there is a Chinese team in each one of those companies, that is monitoring the trends on the US market and they design the new models accordingly, without putting much effort in the actual knife purpose. Instead they are shooting for fancy forms and materials, priced below $200 and those models are selling easily right now especially when everyone is talking how great the Chinese CNC craftsmanship is (like, it can be otherwise, it's a freaking computer, of course it'll give you great execution...)

 

[Chronovore]

the purpose of the Auto opening or OTF, is to eliminate human factor during this action.

Sorry for the earlier misquote on this one. I was referring to the above.

No, and honestly I'm not intending to simply because the Civivi models I find worth spending money as desirable designs, are not using that steel...

I had initially tried 9Cr18Mov years ago from Schrade and maybe CRKT. I remember the factory edges being very bad. I might have sharpened one of them before kicking them to the curb. These experiences had ruined the steel for me and I remained a hater. Then I tried the initial offerings from Civivi and it was a game changer for me.

As my understanding has developed, I get that 9Cr18Mov with a lesser heat treatment and a burnt factory edge can improve if someone has the patience to put like five fresh edges on it. It's still not going to offer much versus 14C28N. However, the stuff from WE only improves. Now I find a surprising amount of my EDC time spent with either 14C28N or WE's 9Cr18Mov, despite owning much fancier stuff.

Of course, my EDC needs are different. If I could only use VG-10 for the rest of my life, it wouldn't be much of a burden. Steels like WE's 9Cr18Mov, BD1N or S30V from Spyderco, or any of my Chinese knives S35VN offer a welcome step up from VG-10 but I don't know how much I "need" it. If your knives are getting much harder use, such that you are better served by S90V or M4, I can understand not being excited about this. It's kind of like how I feel about Buck's 420HC being better than average 420HC.

Still, I think the value presented by WE's 9Cr18Mov on the Civivi and Sencut knives is notable in the current market. Especially as Civivi seems to be transitioning to Nitro-V as a mainstay, I'll be curious to hear about your experiences with it moving forward.

AO takes over between you push the blade out..

I'm not totally sold on AO being more reliable. Since transitioning from AO to manual, I'm certainly sensitive to differences in manual actions. Some are easier to fail than others. Some might require the right touch. With a learning curve of just a few minutes, and not accepting poorly done manuals into my EDC rotation, failure is no more a feature of my knife use now than it was five years ago when AO was all I carried.

I get the Hissatsu reference. I spent some of the 80s and the first half of the 90s in different karate dojos. I'd only apply that to folding knives the way people use "zen" in pop culture today. I want to draw the knife to make a decisive utility cut. Still, closing the knife is a necessary feature of the experience, just as sheathing the sword is a part of Kendo.

As far as tactical use, I'm no operator. I carry a gun for self defense. I switch to a fixed blade when traveling to places that violate my right to do so. I hate the idea of folding knives as defensive tools. To explain this, note that my martial arts journey took me from Karate to Aikido and then traditional Kung Fu. All of those were great experiences, had a lot of value, and were fun for competing within those systems. However, sparring or fighting with people who practiced boxing or wrestling offered a reality check. The styles I learned weren't great for actual defense. I feel the same way about folding knives as defensive tools. Spending mat time with trainers affirmed that viewpoint.

WE are great knives, I like lot's of their models and have no issues with the company or their designs....

Comparing the Civivi and Sencut knives to other brands at similar prices, I stand by my praise for their quality. Like I said before, I've had a large number of Civivi knives apart for inspection. My experiences have been different than yours and I have to wonder if you got a lemon. Coincidentally, I've recently been tinkering with a few Spyderco knives and it highlights my appreciation of Civivi's fit, finish, hardware quality, and choice to use T8 body screws.

I hadn't heard anything about Sencut's history pre-WE and I thought I was reasonably up on my small Chinese brands. I'm interested if you have sources. Sencut's 9Cr18Mov appears to have the same exceptional heat treatment as Civivi's 9Cr18Mov. I've only had two of these apart for inspection now and quality seems comparable to Civivi.

About the design... It's obvious nobody can produce name. Even you, who like so much Civivi can't name who is the designer

That is often true of "in house" designs. For instance, Kershaw only recently started using a little logo for "in house design". Do they disclose who on their team designed what? This seems to be the norm for budget knives across the board.

TwoSun, Kubey, CH, and Petrified Fish are interesting to me. I've followed PF since before they went "mainstream" and were a regular source of rebrands. Speaking of rebrands, CH is now the source for a "premium" line of D2 knives for MTech. The knife in my profile pic is an older model from Kubey. Yeah, these companies all operate in a country with a bad government. While better by definition, the government of my own country operates far outside of its constitutional limitations and does a lot of very bad things. Meanwhile, we have at least one popular knife company here that donates exclusively to one political party. I understand why we aren't supposed to explore these topics on this forum but I often wish we could.

My opinion is that there is a Chinese team in each one of those companies, that is monitoring the trends on the US market and they design the new models accordingly, without putting much effort in the actual knife purpose. Instead they are shooting for fancy forms and materials

I often wonder about this. It's like the older general question of whether artists in state employ make their work soullessly by the crack of a whip or if they work passionately under state patronage. I like the trend of naming designers and design teams. Following both companies and designers on Instagram has been an interesting experience, especially some of the TwoSun finds. Of course, we'd have no way of knowing if a named designer was even a real person or if their IG profile was managed by a PR team. I just have to take some things in life as granted.