Titanium vs Stainless Liners for a folder - Pro's and Cons

tedinatl

tedinatl

Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
893
Hi everyone,

I'm starting to plan my first folder (liner lock), and was wondering what the big difference is between titanium and stainless liners, apart from the weight difference? Are the Ti ones just that much better? If so, why?

Thanks in advance!
Ted
 
Ti is way more expensive, and much more difficult to work with, especially at first. But...you don't need to heat treat it as you will need to HT a steel liner to spring temper. Ti is lighter, more corrosion resistant and in my opinion more desirable to customers.
 
honestly its total preference. i prefer ti because i appreciate the time and work put into cutting it. but at the end of the day a ti liner lock knife i can't say is stronger or weaker than steel, because usually ti is at a lower RHC than stainless steel from the lack of carbon.

but steel will corrode quicker. but i would imagine if the liner corroded than the blade would be also. and a little common sense can keep a knife looking new for years so that is never an issue for me
 
I like a steel liner lock.

Ti has problem with the lock wearing down and developing blade play.
 
Everybody wants Ti for a frame. Honestly every maker knows deep down stainless is a way better liner or even frame lock. But hay if every one used stainless, there would be no more carbidizer sales!!!
 
Titanium, of course, has that "cool factor" that so many people want. I have great interest in metallurgy and materials science (and may be studying them for the next few years), so I too take that into consideration. Titanium can also be anodized, won't corrode under pretty much any circumstance you can place a knife under, it's lighter, and if the lock face is carbidized it negates the problem of galling that would give stainless a huge advantage. Given the choice as a consumer, I would choose titanium over steel every time as a liner/frame material, no question. And I'm not just drinking the Ti kool-aid, I've known about the pros and cons of both choices for quite a while now, and just couldn't rationalize a choice of steel over Ti.

From a maker's perspective, however, my choice would depend on the equipment available to me, as I haven't worked with Ti yet. If I had anything short of a CNC mill, I would probably choose steel every time. I believe 6Al4V is something like 45 HRC, which would be a pain to work with hand tools, especially on a thick framelock. Give me annealed steel, if it works like butter I can spend a whole day filing and enjoy it.
 
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on galling. Carbidizing only delays its happening. It will wear off, or more accurately, it will get scrapped off after a bit of use. Carbidizing doesn't last forever.

I agree however, that titanium is a great choice for a very high tolerance to corrosion! I remove broken taps by soaking in cedric chloride over night. Doesn't touch it.
 
blackcatt said:
Ti is ...much more difficult to work with
Click to expand...

t_davis925 said:
From a maker's perspective, however, my choice would depend on the equipment available to me, as I haven't worked with Ti yet. If I had anything short of a CNC mill, I would probably choose steel every time. I believe 6Al4V is something like 45 HRC, which would be a pain to work with hand tools, especially on a thick framelock. Give me annealed steel, if it works like butter I can spend a whole day filing and enjoy it.
Click to expand...

I dont' think it's that hard to work with.

I an drill and hacksaw it easily enough.

Tapping is a bit springy different but not impossible.

Especially if you are comparing stainless to Ti
Not that different, give it a try.
 
jakehobackknives said:
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on galling. Carbidizing only delays its happening. It will wear off, or more accurately, it will get scrapped off after a bit of use. Carbidizing doesn't last forever.

I agree however, that titanium is a great choice for a very high tolerance to corrosion! I remove broken taps by soaking in cedric chloride over night. Doesn't touch it.
Click to expand...

Are there any more permanent solutions? That's something I'd like to attempt to remedy in the future, seeing as I'm likely to have access to more or less state of the art equipment at UC Santa Barbara. Also, brilliant fix with the broken taps.
 
12345678910 said:
I dont' think it's that hard to work with.

I an drill and hacksaw it easily enough.

Tapping is a bit springy different but not impossible.

Especially if you are comparing stainless to Ti
Not that different, give it a try.
Click to expand...

I just assumed, based off of the hardness of the material. I wouldn't think that's the sole arbiter of machining properties though, so it very much makes sense to me that this is the case. That just makes me that much more excited to experiment with titanium. I'm just waiting until I have an actual use for it. I still have lots to learn, and very much look forward to it.
 
t_davis925 said:
I just assumed, based off of the hardness of the material. I wouldn't think that's the sole arbiter of machining properties though, so it very much makes sense to me that this is the case. That just makes me that much more excited to experiment with titanium. I'm just waiting until I have an actual use for it. I still have lots to learn, and very much look forward to it.
Click to expand...

In this data, assuming annealed 6Al4V
http://asm.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MTP641
They list Hardness, Rockwell C 36


I think the trouble with machining it is not hardness, but gummy-ness and springy-nessand heat build up

and for the most part those issues relate to production machining where balls out top speed is the goal

In a small shop with reduced speed and feeds or with hand tools I think it's much less of an issue.

But I will acquiesce to any opposing opinions by real machinists.
 
Would you mind sharing any tips and techniques for working with titanium. What kind of hacksaw blade do you use?
 
Whatever Bimetal blades I can buy locally, tooth depends on thickness of material.

I'm also using a portaband with bimetal blades, nothing magic about titanium.
 
Thanks for all the responses so far guys. I think I'll try my hand at some Ti. The fact that I don't have to HT it, is a big plus, since I can't do it at home at the moment.

Any issues milling it?
 
I have started paying more attention to folders of late as i may actually have to go over to the dark side and make some at some point. What I have noticed is that a lot of the frame lock knives are iMO, not frame locks but "handle scale locks" in that even in the case of a knife that has a handle scale of a different material on the non-locking side, the lock side is actually a handle scale that is the same thickness as the combination of the thin liner and the scale on the other side. What puzzles me is that on many of these knives, the lock bar portion of the Ti scale has to be seriously milled out up by the base I am guessing in order for it to be 'springy" enough to be useful as a locking mechanism. Aside from perhaps a bigger bearing surface where the bar contacts the blade or maybe it being stiffer in the middle, what is the real advantage of the frame lock setup when done like this other than just looking cool? It doesn't seem like it would be that much stronger than the thinnest point along the lock bar which, to my eye, doesn't really appear to be any thicker than a liner lock bar of the same material. Enquiring minds want to know.;)
 
Many Ti alloys can be heat treated, 6al4v included. You won't see nearly the difference that you would when heat treating a steel but 6al4v often comes in mid to high 30rc(as someone pointed out earlier) and with heat treat you will get low 40's rc. So you can benefit from a heat treat. Luckily its easy to do.

Either a good stainless or Ti work fine for liners. Ti makes a bit stronger of a lock per weight, but also wears/galls at the lock face.

As others mentioned Ti can be a bit harder to work. Its gummy and tends to wear down tooling faster.....but it can be worked with hand tools with a little practice.
 
jdm61 said:
I have started paying more attention to folders of late as i may actually have to go over to the dark side and make some at some point. What I have noticed is that a lot of the frame lock knives are iMO, not frame locks but "handle scale locks" in that even in the case of a knife that has a handle scale of a different material on the non-locking side, the lock side is actually a handle scale that is the same thickness as the combination of the thin liner and the scale on the other side. What puzzles me is that on many of these knives, the lock bar portion of the Ti scale has to be seriously milled out up by the base I am guessing in order for it to be 'springy" enough to be useful as a locking mechanism. Aside from perhaps a bigger bearing surface where the bar contacts the blade or maybe it being stiffer in the middle, what is the real advantage of the frame lock setup when done like this other than just looking cool? It doesn't seem like it would be that much stronger than the thinnest point along the lock bar which, to my eye, doesn't really appear to be any thicker than a liner lock bar of the same material. Enquiring minds want to know.;)
Click to expand...

I'm far from an expert at framelocks so I can't say for sure why its done but I do know Ti is easier to flex than stainless and if you had the Ti lock the same thickness as the ground portion the entire length it would flex much, much easier and probably lead to disengage issues with the lock. I think the cut out allows it to be springy enough to easily use the lock but rigid enough not to distort and disengage....while allowing more surface to engage the blade.
 
Last edited:
On a related topic, with all of the wild aerospace materials that us knife nuts have used so far like Ti and lightning strike carbon fiber, I am curious as to why nobody that i know of has tried the aluminum-scandium alloys like Smith and Wesson uses for its lightest and most pricey compact revolver frames? My understanding is that these alloys are lighter than titanium alloys and very tough, but very expensive and pretty rare. You typically only need as little as .5% scandium and no more than say 3%, but it sells for $7000 a kilo.:eek:
 
Last edited:
jdm61 said:
I have started paying more attention to folders of late as i may actually have to go over to the dark side and make some at some point. What I have noticed is that a lot of the frame lock knives are iMO, not frame locks but "handle scale locks" in that even in the case of a knife that has a handle scale of a different material on the non-locking side, the lock side is actually a handle scale that is the same thickness as the combination of the thin liner and the scale on the other side. What puzzles me is that on many of these knives, the lock bar portion of the Ti scale has to be seriously milled out up by the base I am guessing in order for it to be 'springy" enough to be useful as a locking mechanism. Aside from perhaps a bigger bearing surface where the bar contacts the blade or maybe it being stiffer in the middle, what is the real advantage of the frame lock setup when done like this other than just looking cool? It doesn't seem like it would be that much stronger than the thinnest point along the lock bar which, to my eye, doesn't really appear to be any thicker than a liner lock bar of the same material. Enquiring minds want to know.;)
Click to expand...
They aren't any stronger, and are actually possibly weaker than a linerlock.
A linerlock at least gets support form its scale to prevent buckling.
No such luck for the frame lock.
 
I consider it tougher to work due to it's poor heat transfer and tough springy properties. When you're just getting started with it you may overheat a few drill bits and end mills. Sawing and grinding leaves a hellacious burr and the sparks can be dangerous.

Once you get used to it it's not that bad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top