Tlingit inspired Raven knife

tryppyr

tryppyr

Joined
Feb 5, 2010
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As you may know I live in the Pacific Northwest. Among other things that means I see a lot of ravens, and a fair amount of Tlingit art based on ravens. One of the images that has haunted me for a few days now is one called Raven Steals Sun, which looks like this:

Raven4.jpg


There are a number of ways the raven image has been imagined... here are a few more:


Raven1.jpg

Raven2.jpg

Raven3.jpg


I'm thinking of making something similar to a Raven Steals Sun out of damascus, but more along the lines of the shape of the raven being held in the second picture, with less of a curve in the lower beak.
 
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Although ive never spoke with you I've supscribed to all your projects and have always found them very interesting and just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and wip's. Ive been a knifemaker for nearly 5 years now and have made more traditional styled hunting, bushcraft and kitchen knives. However Your inspiration from nature has inspired me to think outside the box and I plan to share one of my own nature inspired projects with you all soon. So in essence my first art knife.....but again thank you!
 
I apreciate the comments. Now that I've wrapped up the trench knife (and sent the push knife off to HT), I'm going to sketch out this idea. I have two pieces of damascus left... one short (double shark's tooth pattern), one long (random pattern). I'm thinking this could be done either way, but I want to draw them out and see what makes more sense. Hopefully, the sketch will be better than previous sketches. ;)

As with previous projects, this will be differentially etched. At the very least, the sun will not be etched.

Looking forward to seeing your "out of the box" project, Justin.
 
Just finished reading a long version of the Tlingit creation story involving Raven. Their imagery makes a bit more sense now. Hoping that will help me make something a little more in line with what the Raven means to them. Last night I drew some sketches, only one of which is really workable... and I'm still not satisfied.

- Greg
 
Here's a sketch of what I'm thinking now. It will be a push type knife, following the style of Michael Rader's design in which the blade is mounted for slicing. That allows the handle to be correctly oriented as the raven's wings, and enables me to incorporate some Tlingit wing/feather motifs into the handle to pull it together.

Your feedback is appreciated.

RavenPlan.jpg
 
What about something like a wharncliffe(sp?) or a sheepsfoot style blade with the grind and etch working towards the image. The shape of the beak on the raven, resembles that blade shape. Just a thought...
 
If I'm going to change the shape to something more normal, I'll make a seahawks knife instead. ;)
Seahawk.jpg
 
Good start! Im liking where youre going with this. Are you going to sharpen both the top edge and bottom edge? Also im guessing youre only sharpening the beak itself and not extending it back to the chin and/or head, correct? If you did both top and bottom of the beak area only that would start your plunge line in a great place (or places if top an bottom) to add depth and a nice transition from chin to beak and head to beak.
 
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You are correct... the sharpened area will be the beak (forward 2 inches). You can see a bit of that in the latest image.

RavenWIP3.jpg
 
Among other things, I collect T'linget and Haida art. I've done a fair amount of reasearch into the subject. I think you need to get a couple of Bill Holm's books (specifically "Form and Freedom"); there's a lot of meaning in the foms and shapes they used and poorly done they look awful.

I would think you'd do better to copy the shape from the top of the beak and use the eye to add the "sun" to the blade. Their art uses symbology over specific in the form. You're working in a medium where the shape of the form used is more important than the use, but where the true artist is known for making the symbol fit the form which fits the correct usable shape. Take a good look at some of the sculptured jewelry being turned out by today's top NW artists. Visit the UW.

I don't want to be negative, but your current pattern is not even close to T'linget style. Head too round; lower beak too long, too thick, does not follow the shape of the upper; upper to short with curves fighting each other; etc. The whole thing with this style is form is of primary importance.

I think you have a great idea, but you're going to be disappointed in the finished article if you don't do a little more work on the design.
 
I appreciate the comments, Eisman. I may incorporate some of the changes you mentioned, but it's obviously too late to address all of them in this piece. I should say at the outset that it wasn't my intention to create an exact copy of their imagery. I obviously don't understand it well enough to do that. I was inspired by it, and by my observations of the ravens in this area.

So perhaps the best way forward on this project is to move away from any further use of their symbolism, so as not to create confusion or offense. I'll put my own pattern for the eye, and avoid any other Tlingit inspired detailing.

- Greg
 
Based in Eisman's feedback, I did some reprofiling. It still doesn't quite get to the level he described, but it is, I think, closer. The lower beak is smaller and thinner, with a profile that is less in opposition to the upper beak. The side advantage of this work is that the sun is larger too.

RavenWIP4.jpg


RavenWIP5.JPG


Here's a picture of a real raven posing by the street.


Raven.JPG
 
And now with the reworked upper beak, with its new inside curve, creating yet more surface area for the sun. I'll probably shape the sun tonight and call it a weekend.

RavenWIP6.JPG
 
After several false starts, I now have the piece that will become the raven's throat. It was cut from a car part I found on the road, made of some unknown steel. The tough part, obviously, is cutting the slot for the tang. Took several tries and a lot of hand filing, but it's DONE. Now I just need to shape it.

RavenWIP7.JPG
 
tryppyr said:
Here's a picture of a real raven posing by the street.


Raven.JPG
Click to expand...

I do not believe that is a raven. I believe it is a crow. Ravens have a pronounced hump on the upper beak. Therefore the raven's bill is more massive than the crows. Also, on a crow the line of the upper bill meets the rounding of the head almost without angle. A Raven has a definite angle between the bill and the rounded crown of the head.

Perhaps you can see what I describe here. http://www.debbyporter.com/crows-caws/crows-caws.html

Your knife's upper bill looks raven except for the nearly straight connection to the head.
 
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