To Baton or Not to Baton that's the question!

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In my family it always came down to cheapness. Hatchets and axes were cheaper than big knives. :)
At home it was chain saws for felling and cutting rounds. Mauls, wedges, and axes for splitting.
While camping we always found enough deadwood to collect by hand and busted it up by stomping.
Knives were just for hunting and fishing.
My poor depression era parents would scream if they saw the prices I pay for a knife now. :eek:
 
Two points here:
Firstly, the only reason to baton is to get to dry wood for kindling to get the fire going hot enough to keep going. Very occasionally to make something.
Secondly, why baton big long logs when shorter small ones will do?

Generally there is plenty of dry stuff about anyhow.

Home kindling then I use a pretty blunt hatchet or kindling knife that has a good wedge edge. 3" or 4" deep roundels cut with a saw already, so just needs splitting up into sticks.

Nothing wrong in having a tough knife that cuts though.


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Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but as greenjacket said, when you need to get to the dry center of a 3" log? Baton away!!

Edit: plus batoning is a TON of fun
 
I learned batoning in 1992, and I've never looked back. My GSO-5.1 is perfect for batoning wood. Sometimes I quickly need to knock out bow drill apparatus parts, and rather than sit there and carve pieces for twenty minutes, I can baton them to approximate size in a much shorter time. I carry axes and hatchets too, but for more precision splits, batoning does the job.
 
I was "no F'ing way I'm going to baton with a knife!" I used a hawk for it all the time. One day I was granted a GSO10. I will say after giving batoning a try i will not go back to splitting wood with a hawk. Less chance of missing and striking yourself. Less energy than swinging the hawk several times. The one thing about it is, it is way harder to cut down limbs and trees with a GSO10 than the hawk. Also batoning the wood does not have to stand on its own to be striked.

Most people that say "no batoning!" are using a junk knife to begin with, I would only baton with a quality knife. If you are using something cheap, the chances of injury do go up.

my .02
 
People build lots of fires that are un-needed. What do you wear while you're out there getting wood? :-) You'd better have a water filter and sufficient shelter/clothing to not need a fire. Having to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is the mark of the un-prepped, and other bad things are bound to happen to such folks.
 
People build lots of fires that are un-needed. What do you wear while you're out there getting wood? :-) You'd better have a water filter and sufficient shelter/clothing to not need a fire. Having to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is the mark of the un-prepped, and other bad things are bound to happen to such folks.

Thank you for your insightful comments.

I myself carry a thermite grenade to start wet wood. God forbid that anyone call me "un-prepped."
 
Feather sticked fatwood and a bic lighter work in the rain. A good pine branch or old stump can yield fatwood in abundance.
 
People build lots of fires that are un-needed. What do you wear while you're out there getting wood? :-) You'd better have a water filter and sufficient shelter/clothing to not need a fire. Having to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is the mark of the un-prepped, and other bad things are bound to happen to such folks.
I dunno, I go camping to have fun, mess around with some sharp things, and get away from the daily grind, not to practice my Doomsday Preppers audition. I could go out with an Opinel, firesteel, and rolled up saw blade but that sounds like work, not fun.

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People build lots of fires that are un-needed. What do you wear while you're out there getting wood? :-) You'd better have a water filter and sufficient shelter/clothing to not need a fire. Having to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is the mark of the un-prepped, and other bad things are bound to happen to such folks.

Being able to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is actually more like the mark of the prepped. Not trying to be a jerk, but just cannot let the above go unchallenged as I feel it's incorrect.
 
People build lots of fires that are un-needed. What do you wear while you're out there getting wood? :-) You'd better have a water filter and sufficient shelter/clothing to not need a fire. Having to start a fire by splitting wood (when all is wet) is the mark of the un-prepped, and other bad things are bound to happen to such folks.

I have to agree. Wood fires are for lighting up at night, atmosphere and maybe a little bit of cooking, but should not be something you absolutely have to do.

As for getting a few "micro-folds" in the edge, I consider visible micro-folds that are longer than pin-point hard particle damage to be outright edge failure on wood...

Wood should never do visible damage to metal (other than discrete dulling). What makes it worse here is I suspect that the edge angle that got this damage was around 15-20 degrees per side or more (30-40 inclusive or more), and I would not tolerate this even at 10-12 (20-24 inclusive), which I consider "chopping angles"...

There are three possibilities for wood causing micro-folds:

1-The knife has not yet been sharpened enough to get out of the burned-out surface steel caused by machining. (Extremely common)

2-Batoning with the grain puts focussed lateral loads on the edge, and therefore should not be done. (The knives I keep do not do this while chopping)

3-The steel or heat-treating has something wrong with it.

If visible micro-folds are caused by batoning, from the grain moving around for instance, or a greater tendency to yaw from the baton impact (I don't know, since I only ever use chopping), then that is pretty much the final nail in the coffin of batoning for me...

Gaston
 
I always love when "experts" show up to save us all from using our knives. :D

Fires are totally for warmth.
When I participated in the winter camping challenge, fire kept me warm in February despite wearing cotton cargo pants and steel toed boots.
The "disaster" I had to suffer was winning a brand new Becker BK7...what a terrible ordeal! :eek:

So yeah, I'm not about to start listening to the anti-batonning/anti-fire brigade of internet "experts" any time soon. ;)
 
I have to agree. Wood fires are for lighting up at night, atmosphere and maybe a little bit of cooking, but should not be something you absolutely have to do.

As for getting a few "micro-folds" in the edge, I consider visible micro-folds that are longer than pin-point hard particle damage to be outright edge failure on wood...

Wood should never do visible damage to metal (other than discrete dulling). What makes it worse here is I suspect that the edge angle that got this damage was around 15-20 degrees per side or more (30-40 inclusive or more), and I would not tolerate this even at 10-12 (20-24 inclusive), which I consider "chopping angles"...

There are three possibilities for wood causing micro-folds:

1-The knife has not yet been sharpened enough to get out of the burned-out surface steel caused by machining. (Extremely common)

2-Batoning with the grain puts focussed lateral loads on the edge, and therefore should not be done. (The knives I keep do not do this while chopping)

3-The steel or heat-treating has something wrong with it.

If visible micro-folds are caused by batoning, from the grain moving around for instance, or a greater tendency to yaw from the baton impact (I don't know, since I only ever use chopping), then that is pretty much the final nail in the coffin of batoning for me...

Gaston

A micro fold is not a failure or a indication of bad material. Micro folds happen when the edge rolls during use. It's not a defect. A better indication of a defect or poor heat treat would be chipping or a breakage under "normal" use conditions.

Several years ago I went to S!K knives with some of my GSO that needed sharpening. Guy showed me the micro folds in the knives and explained what they were. He then sharpened them for me and had NO concerns. Believe me he would have simply given me a new knife if he thought the blade was compromised. One of the knives I brought to Guy is in the pictures that start this thread, my 7/7 that I bought over 2 years ago. I've put my 7/7 to hard use, batoning, chopping, carving and cutting mostly wood that is very hard and it's never had a chip or a failure. It's had it's share of micro folds but I simply stroped them out or it was sent back to S!K for re-sharpening (at least 3 other times). This is the same with my ALL of my GSOs and to that matter all of my Busses, Fallknivens, Battle Horse Knives, LT Wright Knives, Vipers, etc..

Also, and I should have put this at the start of the thread, I believe chopping is harder or is at least as hard on a blade as batoning. I would take odds that chopping puts as much or more lateral stress on the blade edge than batoning. I've seen more videos of blade failures due to chopping than anything else that would be considered "normal" use and I've never seen one video of a failure due to batoning.
 
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I do like a good fire, but then we don't have a big forest fire danger. Pretty wet here in the UK. In summer then heather and heath fires are possible. Just be sensible.
I'm a smoker so have lighter on me. I do have ferros rods and strikers but they are pretty inefficient; fine as a back up. I also take a fire starting tin of home brew firelighter and some rubber that burns. Lots of woodsmen just get the petrol can out..and use a cap's worth on some kindling. A big woof of petrol going up is stupid. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Making charcoal by the ton or a Hum-by-ya camp fire to sit around.

For dicking around in the woods do whatever you like, if its fun even better. Practice different ways for the interest if nothing else. Some days getting a fire to go is tricky other days a breeze. Do the prep work and its a lot easier. Bushcraft skills are fun to learn, and you never know they might come in handy one day.


Battoning: There is surprising amount of grit in older dead wood, plus there might be that stone or flint under the surface of the ground. Hard twisted wood can put stress on thin grinds and hard hits put vibrations through the steel that might, if inexplicably focused wrongly, find a fault in the steel. I've busted a few knives over the years.
I like my GSO knives because they give me the confidence that they will take such abuse, though that doesn't mean I search out ways to test it. There is work to be done thats for sure, but I try to think how to limit the abuse to get the job done, rather than going to find the limit. Think about what the knife's limitations are and work well within those limitations; a SAK can do most tasks... just takes forever.

Its your call, just be safe.
 
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Batoning doesn't only need to be done for possible fire making. Precision batoning can be used to split smaller pieces of wood for bow drill divot sets, spoons...
 
If you are organised enough to carry a knife then you should be organised enough to carry a firelighting kit. I can't remember ever forgetting my "fighting spoon" either. If you have a pot then you should have a spoon.
Now if you are bushcrafting for the sake of bushcrafting then sure splitting wood might come in handy. I usually have an axe (or more recently a Skrama) at hand. You can split logs with wedges whittled out too.
If you want to test your skills use a SAK.

In truth its not one thing is right and another wrong. Do whatever you like. Sometimes making more of a challenge of something is just for the fun of it.
Again I like the confidence of the GSO's and think the compromises made in a thicker stock knife worth having over a thinner more efficient style, but less robust. Its the reason I've bought into GSO's designs and metal used. I'm a fan. Best bit they aren't exactly heavy either. But for the life of me I don't go around looking for reasons to baton.
 
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Baton, why else would you need to buy 3v and/or Infi at 3/16-1/4" thick.

Exactly. If you're against batonning, then you have no need to be in the Survive! forum, except maybe to tell the rest of us we shouldn't be batonning.
 
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