To carry or not to carry?

T

Thrakandor

Joined
Nov 3, 2004
Messages
8
Hi guys; 'tis my first post. Seems like a nice place. I have a question.

Recent events - the details are unimportant here - have made me revisit my decision to avoid carrying a knife. Previously I didn't think it necessary, but now I'm starting to wonder. I live in New Zealand, which - as most countries now in the West, it seems - is becoming increasingly PC and averse to even acknowledging that the potential for violence in everyday life exists. Maximum carry length for a knife is - I believe - 3.25". Of course this isn't really a problem; the Spyderco Para-Military or something similar would fill that role nicely. But I guess I'm wondering as to the wisdom of it.

I train in Zen Do Kai, which is essentially a freestyle martial art. Not sure if anyone much outside of Australasia would have heard of it. I've been studying there for about three and a half years and have just reached my probationary first degree black belt. I've done some training with weapons and with reacting to them, but not a whole lot; it's something I plan to look into in far greater detail over the coming months.

On the one hand, it seems to me that ultimately it's better to have a knife on you than not; of course you can always choose when to deploy it.

On the other hand - especially if you're carrying a folder - there is going to be precious time taken in getting it out. Not something I think you'd want to try in the middle of a fight. But this essentially means that you have to make the decision to draw [or not] at the beginning, and if you do draw, it seems pretty much assured that someone's going to die.

I guess I'm wondering what everyones' views are on this. What do you all think the chances are of a knife acting as a catalyst to greater violence than would otherwise have been necessary? And do you think that this is outweighed by the simple fact that you do have a knife on you should things come to a head in some dark parking lot?

A quick clarification: I'm not a fan of violence. Certainly I never think it is necessary until one party or other decides to make it so; unfortunately, a lot of people seem to do exactly that. And if it comes down to a choice between my walking away and theirs, I don't plan on laying down. I've had a quick browse of the boards and most of you seem well-aware of the aversion to violence that is beginning to seep heavily into western thought; I just want to make it clear that my post does not have this behind it. But nor am I a fan of unnecessary pain on the part of anyone.

Blar. Sorry for the ramble. And my apologies if this topic has been done to death before, but I had a quick read through and I couldn't see any signs of it.

Cheers,

Michael.
 
this topic has been discussed over in themartialist forums.
it was an interesting discussion, if you can find the thread.

http://www.paxbaculum.com/forum/

i feel there are definitely way too many variables,
from situation to situation, from person to person,
to form a general statement about how knife deployment affects an encounter.

edit:
i'd definitely rather have a knife on me than not.
and i will draw it if my life depends on it.
but then and only then, will i draw it.
 
This is an iteresting topic as I wrestled with it myself as I got to about 50 years of age.

I used to carry a knife for self-defence like one of the spyderco's as well as a more PC knife like a sak for cutting chores. These days I just carry a utilitarian slip joint like a Victorinox soldier or a carbon steel stockman. I gave up carrying a s.d. knife for a number of reasons.

One reason is that over 50 your reflexes are no match for a 19 year old hyped up punk. You will not have the time to pull that knife, and if you do get it out you will probley get nailed by the 2nd punk, as varmits generally hunt in packs.

Another thing to give VERY serious thought to, a knife has no shock value. How many times have you cut yourself and did not feel it for a minute? A person cut or stabbed while high won't feel it. A knife is a poor weapon to stop an attacker quick, and pulling a knife will escallate the confrontation to a life and death match imediatly.

An impact weapon is way more effective than a knife. Thats the only consolation I have of getting to be a grey beard- nobody questions the Irish blackthorn stick I carry now. A stick beats a knife if you will exuse my bad pun. Even a cracked up punk will have trouble harming you with his knife hand, or wrist, or arm broken. What are the laws on walking sticks like there?

A stick is in the hand, not in the pocket or sheath. I still love knives, but as useful tools. For weapons I choose other routes.
 
Yeah, but how do you pick up chicks when carrying a walking stick?
 
A knife of legal blade length has a very unreliable intimidation effect so I would largely discount that advantage when making my decision (it didn't work the only time I tried it). On the other hand a really big knife has better prospects (incidents where a 9 inch blade were pulled potential assailants backed down), but presents legal issues. If you can get away with carrying a club in the guise of a walking stick or as sporting equipment it offers a reach advantage and some threat potential. I don't think of knives as generally all that lethal. One of the things that keeps the homicide rate high in the U.S. is that people often attack each others with guns instead of knives. One of the disadvantages of using a knife is that you are likely to being charged with assault with a deadly weapon, even though that weapon was not all that deadly.

I carry a knife all the time because it is a lot more convenient and utilitarian than a golf club or baseball bat. I try and anticipate trouble and avoid it. Some places like a bank automated teller machine at night I will keep my knife in my hand while I work. It can be deployed very rapidly. Likewise I keep my knife in hand if I hear large dogs at night. If I'm really nervous I will have it open and hidden, sometimes by something I'm carrying and sometimes held in a reverse grip behind my wrist. Yes a surface knife cut does not offer much shock value, but a strong disembowling slash from a razor sharp reverse grip knife will stop most attacks. It's hard to attack if your abdominal muscles are severed. A surprise slash can also work wonders for disarming an assailant. The hidden knife makes more sense to me with a short blade. The real trick is the inconspicuous stowing of the knife if a cop shows up.
 
I would carry a knife purely for its utility value. It is still the single most versatile tool that man has come up with, although SAKs and multi-tools may have improved on the concept a bit. :)

A knife is way down my list of self-defense tools, but it is on there. I carry mine primarily as a tool, but I keep in mind that it can also serve as a weapon under the right circumstances. Those cirumstances are going to be very rare in my case, since I also carry a handgun, a kubotan-style impact weapon, and pepper spray.

So I agree with the folks who suggest a cane or other impact weapon for self-defense, but I would still recommend carrying a utility folder or multi-tool.

--Bob Q
 
like bob, i agree with what people say about impact weapons.
kubotans and koppo sticks can be used very effectively.

but one can carry a knife that can also act as an impact weapon.
 
Boink said:
Yeah, but how do you pick up chicks when carrying a walking stick?
Click to expand...

I have the good fortune to have had a great lady as a companion/best friend/wife for the past 29 years.
 
Boink said:
Yeah, but how do you pick up chicks when carrying a walking stick?
Click to expand...


Easy, you trip em! LOL

Sticks are GREAT! I have a CCW and all that goes with that, but a fighting cane or stick can do a bunch of damage right quick and with much less paperwork than pulling a knife or the 1911.

Rob
 
"Yeah, but how do you pick up chicks when carrying a walking stick?"

Depends on where you ...carry...it.

;) :D
 
I feel that as long as you're reasonably fit and have the right attitude (i.e. not LIKELY to have a knife taken away) it makes sense to have a SD (self-defense) knife as an option. If you have some internal discipline and take time out to train, or at least think about possible scenarios, you can always choose not to draw your knife. On the other hand, if you don't have the knife, you don't have the choice. Fortunately I've never had to use a knife for SD, however I generally carry 2 or 3 (in addition to CS/Pepper spray) because I want to have options. If I had a permit to carry a conceiled firearm I'd likely do that too.

I have mixed feelings about drawing a knife as a threat. On one hand, I understand that you would lose a certain element of surprize, however I think that in some circumstances it might allow one to avoid a fight. I think one very important aspect to keep in mind is distance. It is (IMHO) imperative to maintain a certain personal distance (say 6' +) from a possible attacker. If your possible attacker(s) refuse to keep their distance, after clear verbal warnings, all bets are off (again, IMHO). I can visualize certain situations where displaying a knife and a readiness to use it might help maintain your personal distance and would allow much more rapid/effective use of a knife if it is violated. As has been stated before, it is imperative that you be mentally prepared to use any weapon you carry. In the case of an actual attack/fight, you need to be totally aggresive and attack any available target as hard as you can until the threat has passed.

Fortunately most people that don't carry weapons live full lives without ever needing one, I just don't want to assume I'll be one of those people.

SCDUB
 
I am quite hot-headed. I found out that when i get drunk i have hard time controlling myself when i have something sharp in my pocket larger than puny Victorinox Classic :D I have decided not to carry anything that i would feel comfortable with if i wanted to kill a person. If you do carry a knife and are prepared to use it make sure you understand that

A: it's not pretty, and

B: if you do use it you're likely have to go all the way - BG will fight you for your knife and you'll get a taste of your own blade if you don't do the job properly; in most civilized countries you'd end up locked away from decades at the very least afterwards

If you're the kind of person who goes out and never gets drunk and/or loses his temper i see no reason as to why you shouldn't carry a tool / lethal weapon [*] with you :rolleyes: I'll skip on anything that i'd feel confident in being able to kill a person easily with so pocket knife for opening mail = yes, fixed blade with 13+ cm of blade = no for me.

[*] lethal weapon: something i would feel very confident with when going up against a BG, dog, wolf, etc. For me that'd be fixed blade, ~15 cm (5 1/4 ").
 
Carrying a weapon for self-defense can be a tough call......depending upon an indivdual's circumstance(s) and where they live, and what the local ordinances and laws might be.

I consider myself to be one of the very fortunate ones, who, thanks to HR 218, allows me to carry a concealed firearm in any state in the US. Yup.....even good ole California and Mass. :D

Having said what I've said, I do carry a knife at times, but about 98% of the time, I carry a firearm. Given a choice, I'll always go with a gun over a knife.

But....there are times, when a firearm is a bit too conspicious, and in that situation, a good auto knife is a must for me. ;)
 
Discussions with many have revealed to me that carrying a utilitarian knife that is more workman oriented will go a ways toward the notion that you just happened to have it on you at the time of the defensive work you were forced to do. Which translates into keeping the ominous-appearing or scary-named knives at home. Along those lines, if I were to administer a beat-down with my knobbly hardwood walking stick, would I have to prove some sort of disability in order to have had it on me in urban environments?
 
I'm old, fat, and slow due to lots of accumulated damage :( If I'm down to defending myself with a knife, alot of bad things have already happened (no ammo+no exit) I carry a 1 meter long walking stick of very high quality. (either a Livesay Grey Ghost or a Cold Steel Walkabout) Both have been with me through major airports here and in South America. Noone even looks twice at them, and both are more combat effective than a carryable knife, in most cases. :D
 
Yup. Boink, you would have to show some disablity if you injured someone with a 'club' for sure if lawyers got involved. I have issues with the walkingstick/club/'sports equipment' thing having been hassled about a having a walking stick in my car 30 miles from town yet an elderly bloke, taking his morning stroll, will freely tell you that the golf club he is carrying is a defensive weapon and will be ignored. Should he actually use it it is likely he would be appauded.
Some old coot (anyone older than me) whips out his EDC or (illegal club) and fights off a younger attacker would be less likely to face charges than either of 2 more closely age matched actors....
You must balance your attitudes and general likelyhood of being accosted or being involved in an altercation, with the level of preparedness for defense or utility you actually need to carry. Most people I know who 'carry knives for defense' are hotheads who think it is 'tough' to constantly be at odds with the other testosterone-high boys. These guys are unable to make a good decision whether to carry. That you are asking, is a good sign that you will be able to make a good choice.
If your best tool is a knife, your best weapon should be your brain.
:confused: Wow. Did I say that? I am wiser than I thought....
 
I carry two knives, have a Calif CCW, and a cherrywood walking stick.

Kids have ASKED me if I'm a cop (no) and I walk aware.

But my most prized self-defense weapon is my pepper spray.

The law says that you are SUPPOSED to leave the scene after using it. The "peppered" one won't sue you for wrongful death and you can CARRY IT OPENLY OR CONCEALED.

I vary. When putting coins in or taking them out of the safe deposit box, I carry it IN the bank. IN my hand, thumb on button (usually in "safe" position)

I am a big supporter of pepper spray in that it takes far less weighing of consequences to decide whether to use it.

Usually it's in my pocket. Fun to watch the punks' eyeballs shift to my hand if I am openly carrying. And ain't it strange how only certain "types" even seem to notice it?

:) ;) :)

One thing that no one has mentioned. A real mugger doesn't want to go against a knife as he will usually get "marked" and thus become identifiable.
 
>"On the one hand, it seems to me that ultimately it's better to have a knife on you than not; of course you can always choose when to deploy it.

"On the other hand - especially if you're carrying a folder - there is going to be precious time taken in getting it out. Not something I think you'd want to try in the middle of a fight. But this essentially means that you have to make the decision to draw [or not] at the beginning, and if you do draw, it seems pretty much assured that someone's going to die."


---------------------------------------

On the OTHER hand, many of us (in fact, I'd argue the vast majority of folks who tote a knife every day) never ever think self defense. I carry a knife EVERYWHERE I go but that's in case I need to do battle with an apple or stubborn cardboard box or envelope; you know, boring old pocketknife foes. I'm not comfortable with the notion that the decision "to carry a knife or not" is based on life/death scenarios. At least not in this forum. I believe there's a forum under the TRAINING heading where a lot of guys talk self defense. I don't mean to be confrontational - I really don't. It's just that this whole mindset plays right into the hands of the dreaded sheeple, the jerks who say, "who you planning to kill with that thing?," every time I take out my Swiss Army Knife.
 
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