To Patent Or Not To Patent?

R

riverdog

Joined
Apr 30, 2004
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I've been designing knives for personal use for some time now. I've got a binder full of designs, but have only recently started making them. I'm still building some experience before I try and sell any, but I find myself wondering about the need to patent new designs. I'm still familiarizing myself with the patent process. In a perfect world, everyone that had a new idea could get the patent and get rich from his idea. However, patents cost money, and as a new maker that money usually needs to be invested in equipement. Patents are obviously great to have, and any production company knows that without them there'd be others to happily rip them off. I was hoping to hear a few personal experiences from the "small time" and custom makers on the topic. I'm refering specifically to fixed blades, as I don't doubt for a second that new folding mechanisms require patents. I'm trying to save up money to build up a shop, but also don't want to put out a new design that could have jump started my career, but dosen't because I thought I couldn't afford a patent and everyone just takes my idea. Thanks as always for the input.
 
If you have a design that is truly unique, you should patent it. If not, well then its probably already been tried before anyway. Even actually getting a product patented does not mean you won't get copied, especially if its a good design.
 
I checked into this a while ago. There are actually 2 kinds of patents - one for intellectual property and then a regular patent.

The first one is the easier one to get - doesn't take much time or money. But it offers very little protection.

For the second one - a bonified protected patent - you have to submitted drawings, assembly/construction details, pay a hefty fee (4 digits) and then wait for the review process which is measured in months....But, if you really need it protected, then this is the way to go. But they won't allow just drawings. You have to have a model, and a bunch of other things I've now forgotten....:rolleyes:
 
If you really study cutlery design, you will see that there's really not much new under the sun today. Almost everything you see today has been done in the past.
It would be different if it was some revolutionary new lock, or opening system or something mechanical like that. But a design, I just don't think it's worth it, and it's probably been done already.:eek: :)
 
Daniel Koster said:
There are actually 2 kinds of patents - one for intellectual property and then a regular patent.

The first one is the easier one to get - doesn't take much time or money. But it offers very little protection.

For the second one - a bonified protected patent - you have to submitted drawings, assembly/construction details, pay a hefty fee (4 digits) and then wait for the review process which is measured in months....But, if you really need it protected, then this is the way to go. But they won't allow just drawings. You have to have a model, and a bunch of other things I've now forgotten....:rolleyes:
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Dan THe first sounds like a copy-write
 
This is what I do for a living, I work for a marketing company, our first job is to get our clients ideas protected. Once it's protected we then find a manufacturer that would be interested in mass producing it, and pay our client a licensing fee for the use of their idea. My company of course gets 20% of whatever our client receives and business is very good. :D

You may be able to get a design patent on a fixed blade knife, but I think you can forget about a utility patent which is the strongest patent that the US Patent Office grants, and covers how the invention works. I wouldn't hold out too much hope of getting even a design patent and if you did it would probably be for a design that nobody ever wanted to make before and probably would have a limited market potential.

A unique lock design for a folding knife might be an entirely different story.

My advice, work on building your shop, refine your designs, be very prolific in your production and get a name for yourself. Designs knives that have face something that someone could spot form across the room and know it was made by you. Or that if someone did copy it people would say, "You know that knife looks a lot like _________'s knives!"

A patent is not what you want. You will however find many Patent Attorneys that will be glad to take your money and feel not one bit of remorse when they fail to get you any protection at all.
 
What Phil said.

Also bear in mind that there ain't no Patent Police. If someone infringes, it's up to you and your deep pockets to stop them. That can get costly. I know.
 
I have two patents, one utility and one design. They cost from $4000 to $6000. Depends on how many times they kick it back to have the ideas clarified. Each time cost more for attorneys.

Here is the real kicker though - The patent is only as good as the money you are willing to spend to protect it. Could cost hundreds of thousands or millions depending how badly someone wants to take it away from you. If you don't have that kind of money to protect - than think out of the box and come up with other solutions to make money with your idea.

If you have an idea that is truely unique and valuable, write the whole thing out - very carefully. Put the document into an envelope and mail it to yourself. Don't open it when it arrives. The date on the envelope proves the date of your idea. Then you can try to find a buyer for your idea.

The copywrite is sometimes better - it is protected longer 50 years after your death verses 17 years with the patent. Of course to keep the patent in force you have to keep the patent office informed of your active business of using or selling the patented item. More $ for the attorneys.

I sold one of my copywrites to Hoyt-Easton for tens of thousands of dollars.
It was easy. You can see it on their arrows - it's in most of the ads for a wide varity of products including some of the other camo companies.

Hope my suggestions give you more direction. Good fortune with your idea for design. And good knifemaking.
 
What Phil, Kit and nwindian said. It is not something that you get every time a new (to you) idea pops up in your mind. There are ways to demonstrate that you had the idea first.

The old certified mail to yourself routine, ain't one of them.

There are disclosure forms that can be written and documented. Talk to a patent attorney and then get a second opinion. DO NOT get your advice from the INTERNET. There's a lot of research involved and the patent laws are some of the most complex, Ive ever looked at.

After disclosure is tied up, it's a good idea to share your ideas somewhere like this board. There is a good reason for it.
As pointed out by Kit, you will have to litigate any design thefts. One of the hardest parts of this is proving that A. You had the idea first (Disclosure) and B. they used your design without your permission.

They obviously cannot steal a design that has been kept in total secrecy.

There is NO WAY to prevent someone from making a copy for personal use but you should scream long and hard when someone does. Just don't waste your money trying to litigate it.

Last...stay away from the Patent Disclosure companies you see on TV. They for the most part are scams.

If you need help finding dependable attorneys, let me know and I'll put you in touch with some I've used and trust.

This is what I do for a living, I work for a marketing company,

Phil, if your company advertises on TV, this was not directed at you or your company. I'm sure you are aware of the companies I am referring to. :o

Darn...I'm insulting everyone today
Put the document into an envelope and mail it to yourself. Don't open it when it arrives. The date on the envelope proves the date of your idea. Then you can try to find a buyer for your idea.

That is the tried and true method of disclosure but more effective documents can be filed. :o :o

Sorry guys.....I really didn't mean to step on any toes
 
All this being said, custom knifemaking is an artform, and as a utilitarian object or tool, its been around since man first cut himself on a sharpened piece of chert. With the exception of new materials, there isn't much in the way of new ideas here. Once in a while, somebody comes up with a novelty, such as the K.I.S.S. but those are very few and far between. Look in any cheesy import knife catalog and you'll find a dozen kiss knockoffs. Better to refine your craft, and indulge yourself, because nobody really gets rich quick in this field.
 
All this being said, custom knifemaking is an artform, and as a utilitarian object or tool, its been around since man first cut himself on a sharpened piece of chert. With the exception of new materials, there isn't much in the way of new ideas here. Once in a while, somebody comes up with a novelty, such as the K.I.S.S. but those are very few and far between. Look in any cheesy import knife catalog and you'll find a dozen kiss knockoffs. Better to refine your craft, and indulge yourself, because nobody really gets rich quick in this field.

That's pretty well said Jeff. Everyone has heard my wild eyed rants about the difference in production makers and artists. That's the difference between the $37.00 Kershaw I bought at the gunshow and the $500.00+ folder I'd like to buy from Kit.
Both cut but Kit's cuts with style! ;)
 
peter nap said:
That's pretty well said Jeff. Everyone has heard my wild eyed rants about the difference in production makers and artists. That's the difference between the $37.00 Kershaw I bought at the gunshow and the $500.00+ folder I'd like to buy from Kit.
Both cut but Kit's cuts with style! ;)
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OK pete/don :D
who won that one

Kershaw or KIT :confused: :)
 
So far it's the gun show Dan...but...I cut myself with it yesterday so I may sue Ken Onion and but Kits folder.


I'm just joking Ken! :footinmou :footinmou

Although, I did cut myself with it :o

I should be so lucky this summer to get one of Kit's folders or Chucks Holsters. :grumpy:
 
I am going through a patent process on a new item for knives right now.
The bill to the attorney will be about 50,000 - 85,000. There will be 5 patents to protect 1 item 5 different ways (5 patents) to prevent knockoff of the item.
It costs a lot of money to patent an invention.
So the item has to be worth the money spent to get it secured.
Then as others have said you have to protect the patent from knockoff and folks using it without permission.
Everyone here has made good points about the patent process.
 
Patents are sometimes a necessary evil . Getting one will not prevent #$^%#@*&^% from ripping off your **** . I have like 39 patents and probably just as many %$#@ trying to find ways arround them . I'm lucky I have a 800lb gorilla to help defend against the opportunistic %$# that can't seem to come up with there own stuff and would rather try to ride others coat tails.
 
Well Ken, for what it's worth....I've taken Kershaws apart and looked at the mechanism. I've taken apart the knockoffs and looked at them. I decided your design can't be improved on (at least by me) and didn't care for the knockoffs at all.

I bought another Kershaw, had it taken away by my daughter and had to buy yet another one.

So....I'd say you and Kershaw were doing something right and the copycats are missing something!
 
peter nap said:
Well Ken, for what it's worth....

So....I'd say you and Kershaw were doing something right and the copycats are missing something!
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I just wish the one I bought some time ago had a 154 CM blade in it :footinmou :D
it was a EDC,, you know,, jump the car starter type knife :eek: :)
 
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