To the Xperts...Stainless or carbon steel

Joe, I certainly think if we're talking stainless vs carbon, tool steels fall into the carbon camp, don't they? Sure, 3V isn't 1095, but you were the one who brought up S30V, 154CM, ATS-34, VG-10, and BG42, so I figured if we were talking real steel, we'd talk real steel. :)

A fair number of makers are starting to take on 3V, especially as it becomes more available. Hell, aren't Fehrman knives actually midtech, or semi-production, rather than custom? (Apologies if I have that wrong, it won't be the first or last time. :D ) Let's face it, a couple years ago, S30V wasn't available "outside the custom realm", now you can get it for $40 at Walmart. Ed Schemp has been soliciting opinions (in the Spyderco forums) on whether his new Spyderco-produced piece should be in one of the high performance Crucible tool steels, or a more affordable spring steel - in a year we may yet be looking at a production knife in one of these currently custom-only alloys. :thumbup: Benchmade has been making production folders in M2 for ten years now - sure, that's not A9, but it's closer to it than it is to any stainless steel. No?
 
Meanwhile....I cannot escape the artistic style of a quality full polished blade with a clay applied differential HT and active hamon....Theres more "life" in some blades than others, but that has nothing to do with performance.....
 
True, although I have no experience with the knives you mentioned. I had a Benchmade M2 many years ago, and that was the most brittle-edged knife I ever owned. So many opinions disagreed with that assessment that I figured maybe I just got a badly heat treated one. You're right in that the non-stainless innovation and improvement has continued right along with the stainless, and Cliff is right in that S30V isn't the wonder steel everyone said it would be (personally, I hate the stuff....too much work and material destruction to get a knife I don't like any better than my CPM154CM ones). For me it's a compromise between ease of maintenance, edge holding, ease of sharpening, and achievable finishing that led me to 154, and now CPM154. I just flat love the stuff. I don't regret it, although I may be using some D2 in the future. I did bring up the modern stainlesses, Nick, but that's because they're in pretty common usage, unlike the ones you mentioned. Hopefully, if the ones you mentioned are as good as you believe, and I have no reason to believe they aren't, we'll see some good examples to try out. I still stand by my belief that good stainless is a better choice for most people, but I'm certainly not married to that opinion, so I'm willing to change my mind. For me, if I like the knife I get it, because maintaining them or sharpening them is no problem. It's just my opinion that for what I like in a knife, 154CM fits the bill better than anything I've found. I'm not against any other steel. (Except 420:D)
 
Big Ugly Tall Texan said:
And it may be what I wind up buying, although I realize Damascus steel is softer.
Click to expand...
That's not a true statement, it depends on the steels used and the heat treatment given.
 
I'm enjoying this thread tremendously. Lot's of people are disagreeing without namecalling or being disagreeable. That's great.

I think many years ago, there was a large distinction between stainless and non-stainless. Today, it's less so. There are stainless today that outperform the stainless from yesteryear, and also tool steels that will outperform carbon from yesteryear. I have some VG 10 blades that hold an edge longer than 1095 blades, although my 1095 blades are not 65 or 66 HRC. It's impressive. I also have some 3V and other tool steels that are blowing away most (if not all) my stainless blades in the same area. Not to mention some 5160 choppers that are almost impossible to hurt. I'm currently playing with an O1 blade that has been truly impressive (thanks Scott!).

All in all, I prefer high carbon - non stainless. I also live in a dry climate and not around the ocean.
 
sodak, O1 is one of my favorites. It is a great carbon steel. It's a pleasure to work with and is very forgiving to HT. Glad you're enjoying the blade.;)
Scott
 
So Cliff your basically saying that raising the tempering temperature above 325F for 1095 will only serve to make a knife inferior? How long would said knife stay at this temperature?
 
B.U.T.T., The reason stainless rules the roost for the average joe knifebuyer is on the knife, to the right, in the photo.
PJMuck.gif

That cut exactly one cooked steak.
It stained.
It is 52100, forged by a Master Smith.
Other folks would see this stain and be upset. Some might think it is cheap steel or just bad. They may feel the need to polish the stain away.
The stain doesn't bother me, in fact I welcomed it. That's why I didn't hesitate to use it for my steak.
In time it the whole blade will stain and turn into a grayish black patina that will protect the blade from the evil orange rust.
Since then I've used it on a bunch of wood, cardboard, paper and stuff. But that is neither here, nor there.

The steel experts and the steel snobs will all have alot to say, but the bottom line for the average joe knifebuyer is that stainless stays pretty longer.
The bladeforums folks are a level above average joe, however.
Alot of good, polite info in this thread too.
But it is the whole package that makes a good knife.
Not just the type of steel.
There are good stainless knives, and bad ones.
Some using the same steel.
Same thing for carbon...and damascus too.
(Just like there is good cheddar and bad chedder ;) )

Hope it helps.
 
Thanks for the link, its odd how most knifemakers either don't know this or don't appear to care... :confused:

I wasn't saying it was your opinion, I was just trying to understand clearly what you were saying.
 
No worries, the materials data exists for most tool steels, all you have to do is go look it up. It is pretty complex for some of the high alloy steels due to the multiple maxima, but for the low alloy steels the behavior is simpler, of course you also have martensite/bainite mixes with them which can also give the same hardness with a different toughness profile, that would be worth investigating for tougher knives, but requires some specialized equipment to quench the blade to specific temperatures and hold it there.

-Cliff
 
I share the sentiment that carbon blades are more lively.
O-1 is a great steel in a fixed blade.
All my best knives are high-carbon, all FB.
None of them, even the cooking knives, looks as bad as in that photo.
For an EDC folder, I'd prefer stainless though, as they usually are.
For a Bowie, yes, try carbon if you know how to take care of it (oiling etc.)
best,
t.
 
tristam, I could polish the blade up with some flitz and have it look like new. Not much effort in that, at all.
I'd rather not. The developing patina is like a journey. Each bit tells of an experience. What I see there is steak and onioins on a camping trip with my best friend and his son, my godson.
It's all in the way you look at it.
Here is a 1095 blade that I etched with vinegar...short cut to patina :D
NLUSMarshall.gif
 
tristram said:
None of them, even the cooking knives, looks as bad as in that photo.
Click to expand...

The initial rust on a high polished carbon steel blade can look very bad, similar to the first deep scratch. However if the blade is in significant use on a regular basis, it all very quickly blends together and you don't see any bare steel to contrast against.

-Cliff
 
I wouldn't even call it rust in the full-blown sense. It's just a bit of coloring, or the sort of surface corrosion that you can see as an enlivening and protecting patina if you like... (Rust being associated imo with peeling-off layers of oxydized metal thereby lost and damaging the tool).
It's that coloring that gives life and soul to the carbon blade, like my wrinkles.
Serious facial damage of the sort portrayed in the photo, especially if it's not the result of tough work in memorable adventures but of a one-time steak-cutting accident, would merit some plastic surgery though
:)
 
Google for ferric oxide and ferro ferric oxide.

It's a gun thang but will work for carbon based knives, as will parkerizing.. or Ospho.. a phosphoric based metal treatment.
 
Serious facial damage of the sort portrayed in the photo...
Click to expand...

Not being contentious, just trying to understand.
Seriouls facial damage?:confused:
That is a stain. The initial stain on a brand new knife. It has some more now, but there is absolutly no damage anywhere.
You can see the polished edge in the photo.
It may look worse to you, compared to the 2nd photo, because the blade is only partially stained.
:dunno:
It wouldn't have stained if I was cutting non-food items.
(I think it was the vinegar in the BBQ sauce that got it going though.)
This does illustrate my point, in my first post, stainless is popular because it looks pretty longer :D
 
Stain implies a top coating which could be removed without harming the underlying material. In this case that is rust which transformed the actual steel into iron oxide, if you remove it, you take away the steel. Now it is less damaging than the other form of rust, but if for example that oxide extended down into the edge and you tried to use the knife it would be quickly obvious that it was damaged as all the edge would fracture away.

You can see that in use with carbon steel blades and stainless ones in really corrosive enviroments, the edge is damaged from the oxidization just like the flats take a patina. The benefit to the patina, aside from the fact that some find it cosmetically attractive is that unlike the orange form of rust, it is somewhat stable, assuming conditions are not excessive. Really heavily used carbon knives, a generation or two, can have such a thick coating of the black oxide it is almost tactical black.

-Cliff
 
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