To vineger soak, or not ?

Agent_H said:
This is more a testament that I can mess anything up
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Agent_H,do you mean to imply that your vinegar-soak has caused the pitting on that Craftsman?

Sorry,i can't see how that would be possible.Even using a much stronger etchant,FeCl,you'd have to take the object out,and dutifully scrub off the catalysed material,to reach such depth of etch.
The pitting was already there,disguised by whatever structure That oxide has formed in These conditions on This alloy.

You can "dissolve" oxide(at least some of many oxides,and soften would be a more correct term),but you could not erode steel in the way that Craftsman is affected.(moisture,+time,possibly some Cl or something equally caustic in the atmosphere...but NOT vinegar!:)

Beautiful contrast of blade-steel and body on that DB,btw,a good example of how it's a weld,and not at all anything to do with "tempering",or any heat-treatment of the axe.

Hollo07,i'd second Garry3 and say DEFINITELY,of course,changing one part of a chemical reaction will alter the outcome:).
 
Kevin Houtzager said:
why is everybody so over patina and that it Will not hold on vinegar? When You use a wire brush You are actually removing more patina then You would with vinegar.

wirebrush tends to remove more of the high spots and lees of the low spots. Vinegar tends to remove the Same amount of the high spots as the low spots, so actually more of the original shape intact.
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Patina is not on the steel but is the change in color to its surface, if your wire wheel isn't removing metal it's not removing patina.
Vinegar is an acid that eats away materials which can be bad if left too long, however the main problem is that it covers the steel in a new patina and for most axes this new patina is a dull grey color.
A wire wheel can be used with care to remove only the rust, but you have no control over what the vinegar is doing , only how long it does it for.

I'm not saying you're wrong for using vinegar on your own tools, but you're statement that wire wheels remove more patina is wrong.
 
Jake, I will most certainly defer to you on a possible explanation of the chemistry.


I bought the hatchet and cleaned it up some.

I was reading reading Square_peg's thread on them and was lamenting that I had an oval Craftsman but think I left it on my bumper or something unloading somewhere or it went with my truck in a trade in by accident.


Agent_H said:
"Got a pair in the mail today"... Must resist...


Those are great looking heads. I have a couple of newer craftsman axes. The only Craftsman oval I had disappeared after purchase. It was a hatchet that needed some love. Believe I missed taking out from underneath the rubber bed liner on my last truck.


I joked with them and said any live ammo they find was theirs during trade-in. I won't see it again.


The cedaresque pattern Plumb is especially nice.
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Agent_H said:
Guess I was wrong. It was under a bundle of rope behind the back seat.

This one needs some work. Are hatchets with nail pullers hardened up to them?


http://www.bladeforums.com/file:///...\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.jpg

.

http://www.bladeforums.com/file:///...\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg
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I was curious if the hardening went back to the nail puller…

I dropped in in my 5% acidity vinegar (grocery store stuff) tub. For some reason I thought a quick trip might bring out the mark more.
A good time (I don’t remember how long that was - month(s)? later I was moving things in that corner of my workspace, heard and felt something slosh and bump around in there when I was moving the bin, and pulled it out.


I pulled it out, swore, did a little involuntary move similar to rocking back on my heels with my head following, rinsed it, wiped it off, ran a piece of coat hanger through the eye and hung it on off my table saw, kind of writing it off. It was there for about two days before I decided it needed to still be saved.


That vinegar in there (can take a picture) hasn't been changed... ever...

That is it tonight. The fumes taste like tin foil and stick with ya.
r6WzMdt.jpg


I know I only put vinegar in there but I have soaked other tools in it - not just axe heads. It there something in galvanization or other metals/coatings that could have altered the compound of some sort?

I did by the way sharpen it up and it lives a good life being used by a younger guy who enjoys camping...
So, I don't know what to say but I am more curious than embarrassed now lol.

*It looks a little different color in the areas that are more eaten in the first picture I posted.
 
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Jake, the softening of oxides you mentioned- Could it be that those erroded areas could have been "filled" with those oxides and the vinegar just removed them?

I don't know much about the chemistry so I simply assumed it was my negligence leaving it in there to die because it didn't look like that when it went in.

I mean it was an oval Craftsman afterall :(
 
Hmm...Agent_H,i wish that i could give you a more concrete,chemically defined explanation,but my knowledge is not that deep(and more practical than theoretical...).
I'd say that time would most likely degrade vinegar just standing there open,also the previous uses would dilute it's acidity vs the reverse(which seems implied above).
Even if you've forgotten that axe in sulfuric,or even in nitric acid,the etching effect would A,be uniform in depth(more or less),and B,reach a certain(insignificant)depth,and then stop.To continue the etch,you'd need to take the object out,and scrub off the oxides that have entered into the reaction.Otherwise,they coat the surface,acting as resist agent.
All deep etching is achieved thus,by use of frequent,periodic scrubbing.(It often also includes neutralising...and always-Very thorough degreasing(which nobody has mentioned above;it's lack makes Any etching almost wholly ineffective...).
Old,evaporated vinegar,that started life at 5%,contaminated by all sorts of junk that it has already reacted with....

....Why,i'd say that you're Entirely blameless!!!!!.....:)
 
Agent_H said:
Jake, the softening of oxides you mentioned- Could it be that those erroded areas could have been "filled" with those oxides and the vinegar just removed them?
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That's exactly what i meant in the first reply,thank you!:)
(it's a great art,the ability to put things simply,how i envy those that are good at it...).
 
jake pogg said:
Hmm...Agent_H,i wish that i could give you a more concrete,chemically defined explanation,but my knowledge is not that deep(and more practical than theoretical...).
I'd say that time would most likely degrade vinegar just standing there open,also the previous uses would dilute it's acidity vs the reverse(which seems implied above).
Even if you've forgotten that axe in sulfuric,or even in nitric acid,the etching effect would A,be uniform in depth(more or less),and B,reach a certain(insignificant)depth,and then stop.To continue the etch,you'd need to take the object out,and scrub off the oxides that have entered into the reaction.Otherwise,they coat the surface,acting as resist agent.
All deep etching is achieved thus,by use of frequent,periodic scrubbing.(It often also includes neutralising...and always-Very thorough degreasing(which nobody has mentioned above;it's lack makes Any etching almost wholly ineffective...).
Old,evaporated vinegar,that started life at 5%,contaminated by all sorts of junk that it has already reacted with....

....Why,i'd say that you're Entirely blameless!!!!!.....:)
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I'll take it!

It still turned out gray lol
 
Kevin Houtzager said:
why is everybody so over patina and that it Will not hold on vinegar? When You use a wire brush You are actually removing more patina then You would with vinegar.

wirebrush tends to remove more of the high spots and lees of the low spots. Vinegar tends to remove the Same amount of the high spots as the low spots, so actually more of the original shape intact.
Click to expand...

That's not the result I get. My cup brushes leave a nice even patina that looks darker and better (to me) than a vinegar soak.
 
Square_peg has brought up an interesting thing-scrubbing with a brass brush.

It makes quite a bit of sense,and in more way than one:To begin with,brass is softer than steel,which makes it unlikely that it'll score,damage,take away any of the material the axe is made of.

Many axes are covered,partially,with Forge,or Mill-scale,(yet another)form of Ferrous Oxide that is,of course,a by-product of the manufacturing process.
Lets remember now that (most)oxides are Way harder than steel(oxides of different metals are commonly used as abrasive compounds because of that).
Forge scale comes in two general flavors,the loose kind,and the dreadfully STUCK kind,that won't come off for love nor money.....they normally form a patchy kinda pattern over the surface of a forging.
Scrubbing with a steel wire-wheel can actually erode steel from in between the stuck patches of scale,scale being much harder than the wire-wheel,Or the axe itself,so something has to give....And it won't be the super-hard scale!:)
So,the brass wire is of course much different,way gentler,and won't do that.
But....("Why does there always have to be "but"?"...R.Brautigan,1967)....
Brass is so soft,that some brass(depending on the alloy,all brass is not created equal,of course)will deposit itself on both the steel and the scale(which is also porous,and rough).
If you wire brush long enough,Or,at some moderate heat,pretty soon the entire surface will turn "golden",it'll be coated with brass...
(for a number of years i've forged a carpenter's holdfast with a leaf finial,and many customers requested that the finial be "brassed"...gaudy,but,what the heck:)
The brass coating will significantly affect corrosion resistance,i think it's (cuprous)oxides spread,protecting the surrounding steel even if the coverage is not 100%...
In the centuries past,many European cultures,notably Germany,had a tradition of "coppering" their tools...Just like that,mechanically,in the Middle Ages,and then later by electro-depositing....You still see a few old "coppered" engraving hammers and measuring instruments....mostly the more costly,precision tools...
Sorry for the rabbit trail....:)
 
jake pogg said:
Square_peg has brought up an interesting thing-scrubbing with a brass brush.

It makes quite a bit of sense,and in more way than one:To begin with,brass is softer than steel,which makes it unlikely that it'll score,damage,take away any of the material the axe is made of.

Many axes are covered,partially,with Forge,or Mill-scale,(yet another)form of Ferrous Oxide that is,of course,a by-product of the manufacturing process.
Lets remember now that (most)oxides are Way harder than steel(oxides of different metals are commonly used as abrasive compounds because of that).
Forge scale comes in two general flavors,the loose kind,and the dreadfully STUCK kind,that won't come off for love nor money.....they normally form a patchy kinda pattern over the surface of a forging.
Scrubbing with a steel wire-wheel can actually erode steel from in between the stuck patches of scale,scale being much harder than the wire-wheel,Or the axe itself,so something has to give....And it won't be the super-hard scale!:)
So,the brass wire is of course much different,way gentler,and won't do that.
But....("Why does there always have to be "but"?"...R.Brautigan,1967)....
Brass is so soft,that some brass(depending on the alloy,all brass is not created equal,of course)will deposit itself on both the steel and the scale(which is also porous,and rough).
If you wire brush long enough,Or,at some moderate heat,pretty soon the entire surface will turn "golden",it'll be coated with brass...
(for a number of years i've forged a carpenter's holdfast with a leaf finial,and many customers requested that the finial be "brassed"...gaudy,but,what the heck:)
The brass coating will significantly affect corrosion resistance,i think it's (cuprous)oxides spread,protecting the surrounding steel even if the coverage is not 100%...
In the centuries past,many European cultures,notably Germany,had a tradition of "coppering" their tools...Just like that,mechanically,in the Middle Ages,and then later by electro-depositing....You still see a few old "coppered" engraving hammers and measuring instruments....mostly the more costly,precision tools...
Sorry for the rabbit trail....:)
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I've had that happen when using a small brass wire wheel in a dremel ( didn't have any other wire wheel at the time ) this obviously happened because of the fine wires and the heat from the high rpm of the dremel.
I did end up getting a wire wheel for my drill though and it removed all traces of brass from the hammer head.
 
I've put a brass colour on a hammer head using only a hand held brass brush.
Though I'm sure heat & speed makes things quicker.
 
Kevin Houtzager said:
You can have control if you want to aply it on specific area's in to ways:
1. Use nailpolish to cover the spots that you dont want to use the vinegar on. Just apply aceton afterwards.
2. Get a piece of paper about the size you need. Soak in vinegar. Leave it on the spot.

Every abbrasive is removing something. It can be steel copper, emery cloth, scotchbrite silver polish or acid.

Getting a darker color: Boil the vinegar. But please, do it outside and with wind blowing away from your house (and if you have some bad neighbours, directly at them, preferably during an barbeque :D!) You'll thank me later ;) You'll get the very dark grey/black color. But I actually don't know why it gets darker if its heated and stays heated for on hour or so with the head still in it.???



I would say that thats because of relatively loose rust thats allready on there had the pitting, but it just revealed itself until after the vinegar bath. I see it al the time on much older axes.



I had the same effect, but stil had it with steel wheels as well, so it could also be rpm related. Or better yet: brush speed. On what kind of rpm do your power tools run? Since european and American moddels differ quite a lot in that aspect? And whats the diameter of de brush/cup? My dremel-ish thingamajigg is variable 350watt with max RPM kicking in at 50.000 rpm. Diameter is 2,5cm, or about 1 inch. As for the electric drill I'm using for it: I'll have to look that up, but its closer to 10.000 RPM and 10cm, so roughly 4 inches.
Dremel: 235,5 KmH / 146 Mph
Drill: 188,4 KmH / 117 MpH

I usually use it only on the logo's as I actually like pitting in some cases and it removes pitting with the brush/cup.So long as you clean the surface you wont see any performance loss. Low spots aren't that bad, but high spots are.
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A wire wheel is not meant to be a form of abrasive, and will only remove steel if you bear down on them.

BTW another reason I don't use vinegar is because the horribly gut wrenching smell that is guaranteed to make me vomit 10/10.
It's okay if you like using vinegar, but I'm hearing nothing sound in defense of it as a rust removal method.
The fact is that the original patina is gone after a vinegar soak, and it can't be helped.
 
IIRC, hydrogen gas is formed from the reaction of vinegar and iron, which contributes to the unpleasantness. Heating the vinegar increases the rate of the chemical reactions. I've read of people adding salt to the vinegar for faster or "better" results, with various explanations given (chloride plus hydrogen from the reaction combine to form some hydrochloric acid? chloride plus iron from the reaction combine to form some ferric chloride?).
 
I did that with an old sad iron.
Ruined it.
Also a could cast skillets.
Perfectly good metal got heavy pitting.
I scraped it with a screwdriver and the iron was soft.
After I rinsed it well and it dried, it seemed to harden back up.
Maybe my imagination , but that is my experience with leaving stuff in vinegar too long.
 
Gator39 said:
I did that with an old sad iron.
Ruined it.
Also a could cast skillets.
Perfectly good metal got heavy pitting.
I scraped it with a screwdriver and the iron was soft.
After I rinsed it well and it dried, it seemed to harden back up.
Maybe my imagination , but that is my experience with leaving stuff in vinegar too long.
Click to expand...
No its not your imagination.http://vinegartips.com/vinegar-donts/

I have left some axes in vinegar for days with no apparent problems and others not so good. We are dealing with a variety of different steels with these vintage axes. Some are so soft that a brass brush will polish them or remove steel. Its these older heads with the really soft bodies that come out of the vinegar looking like crap. I just stick to the brush(judiciously) with those older ones.
 
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