Tojiro Nakiri and Paring knife - first thoughts

[thombrogan]

There are some with obtuse edges which are made for heavy fish cutting, but it is hard to imagine a use for such a bevel on a paring knife especially in general when the Japanese tend to use high edge stability steels. How much are these knives anyway?

I'll gladly regrind your Wilson knife to about 0.007" for you if you'd like. You still have my address?

The Tojiros cost $45 and $37 respectively.

Here are their gorgeous mugs:

It upsets me when you make references to "the Japanese" as though Japan's citizens were all some homogenous mass of cutlers. Among the few who are, it's more than just the white, blue, and yellow paper steels which are being used in the commercially popular knives. Ryusen and Kai use SG-2 in their Blazen and Shun Elite lines, Yoshikane uses SKD-11 (aka D2) in their French-style chefs knives, Masahiro uses MBS-26 and VG-10 (as do many others), Tosa uses SRS-15, and Sandvik 19C27 is very popular as well (as are several unclassified "Swedish" and "molybdenum and cobalt" steels).

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'll gladly regrind your Wilson knife to about 0.007" for you if you'd like.

Slacker, has to be under 0.005" .

Yoshikane uses SKD-11 (aka D2) in their French-style chefs knives, Masahiro uses MBS-26 and VG-10 (as do many others), Tosa uses SRS-15, and Sandvik 19C27 is very popular as well (as are several unclassified "Swedish" and "molybdenum and cobalt" steels).

At least half of them are the same class, D2 is kind of silly, that has to be western influence. I should have been more clear in saying traditional japanense knives with traditional japanese steels. You will find exceptions to even the small alloy content in the blue steel so looking at D2 in comparison is absurd from that point of view.

How do you find the upsweep on the paring knife?

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Slacker, has to be under 0.005" .

No problemo. How polished would you like the edge?

At least half of them are the same class, D2 is kind of silly, that has to be western influence.

Since many of steels mentioned are used to make French-style chef knives (gyuto), the dreaded Western influence has been inextricably entwined before the first dread billet of SG-2 arrived at the Ryusen factory. OTOH, the Shun Elite (SG-2) and Yoshikane (SKD-11) knives have thinner edges than most knifeknuts will see on their folders.

It's little known, but when Commodore Perry first set foot on Japanese soil, he forced a cutler to use a bag filled with iron ore, charcoal, molybdenum, chrome, and vanadium to produce a steel blade for a folding knife that featured a lock fashioned from one of its scales.

How do you find the upsweep on the paring knife?

Works great for peeling apples. Just need to thin the bevel out and it'll be a high-performer.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

No problemo. How polished would you like the edge?

Polished on 10V - surely you must be joking?

Since many of steels mentioned are used to make French-style chef knives ...

Ah, there is rub then, of course western knives will tend to have western steels - I was not talking about that level of nonsense though.

Works great for peeling apples.

Have you ever used the heavily curved ones?

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Polished on 10V - surely you must be joking?

Quite serious. 0.7 microns boron carbide has more pew-pew-pew than a laser and less kyu-kyu-kyu than a n00bz0r. My 3 micron diamond hone may finally be useful, too.

Ah, there is rub then, of course western knives will tend to have western steels - I was not talking about that level of nonsense though.

French-style chefs knives are the knife. When someone is showing off their most prized Carter, Watanabe, or Takeda and they have the budget to own one, it's usually a French-style chef knife. For the production shops, it's usually still a French-style chefs knife. The steel is harder and thinner, the bevel may be asymmetrical or one-sided, and the balance may be away from the handle, but it's still l'couteau d'France. Well, KAI uses more belly like the Messers auf Deutschland, but still super-thin edges and high-hardness steels.

Have you ever used the heavily curved ones?

Nope. Just dropped point, spear-point, and now upswept wharnies.

 

[Thomas W]

So it sounds as if the Nakiri and paring knife are solid choices, and Tojiro gets more than a passing grade in spite of their chubby edges?

 

[thombrogan]

Tojiro gets more than a passing grade in spite of their chubby edges?

The nakiri does. The paring knife; a sample of one; should've been thinner from the get-go. With the edge thinned, the nakiri is pleasure for making tater salad.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Quite serious.

I know you can, the question is why, wrong steel.

French-style chefs knives are the knife.

There are some nice ones, I tend to prefer western/western, class like Wilson makes, but with high edge stability steels.

Just dropped point, spear-point, and now upswept wharnies.

The deeply curved ones get some pressed, possibly good for peeling, keep meaning to try one out. Can't see it outperforming Johnston's though. No matter what you do to the paring knife in the above it won't even come close to Johnston's, edge is far too thick and regrinding it won't help - unless of course you flatten the primary all the way down.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

The paring knife took more passes on the D8XX than the nakiri on rebevelling, but it was still quick. The real test will be when something needs a paring knife and if I can relinquish my Shun Elite paring knife. Pretty bad that my Tojiro report is more of a "Man, do I like KAI Shun knives" report.

Cliff,

I checked out some pictures of the old school knife from Lee Valley. It looks somewhere between a pettite and a funayuki bocho. So we're still looking French-style knives with what we'd call a Japanese-style rendition.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Yeah, there is an influence, but the steel and grind are japanese which is what matters. Unfortunately it sounds like much of the production is shifting away from initial sharpness and cutting ability and towards higher durability and the ability to stay dull for a long time. That tends to be a focus of many western knives. Ok for some types, heavy tacticals and such, and of course rough fish choppers and such, but not for paring, meat, vegetable knives.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

Part of why I want a Takeda; other than Curtis Chung saying they're better than Carters; is to experience the edge a small-carbide/high-hardness steel can take in a bladeshape and size that will fit my knifeblock. The SG-2 in my Shun Elite chefs knife and parer take a very keen and polished edge and hold it for a long period of time (and they just need King 1200 and 8000 to do it), so why not? The thick edges seen on my Tojiros may be because they're a lower-end product - I've never read of anyone complaining about the edge profile of a Shun, Ryusen, Mizono, Masahiro, or Yoshikane - so I'm not sure the shift you're seeing is so bad. Plus, Larrin Thomas is making santoku patterns with AEB-L hardened to RC-63, so not everyone's throwing D2/D3 knives together.

 

[db]

I have thought, and have read that most Japanese kitchen knives come not fully sharpened. Even though they are still sharper than most other types of new kitchen knives they do need to be finished sharpened by the owner. However, they should still be and have a thin grind on them. I believe even some of the more custom Japanese kitchen knives come with no edge at all on them.

 

[thombrogan]

Cabelipers are more accurate than plastic calipers. My Nakiri is 0.01" thick at edge bevel and thickens higher up. Tojiro parer is 0.02" thick with reprofile, but it's a large, pretty bevel. Shun parer is 0.01" thick at shoulders, but they're further back than when new (another large, pretty bevel). The Shuns always cut great and now the Tojiros do, too.

Thanks to Gunmike1 for his Cabelipers (Cabelas calipers)! :thumbup:

 

[gunmike1]

Thanks to Gunmike1 for his Cabelipers (Cabelas calipers)! :thumbup:

No problem, I thought you would get some use out of them, as my fancy digital calipers had put those ones in the toolchest to collect dust. I still owe you big time for all of the sharpening supplies and knowledge you have hooked me up with.

Mike

 

[thombrogan]

You make it sound as though I've corrupted you.

 

[gunmike1]

You make it sound as though I've corrupted you.

I think enlightened is a better description. If you ask my wife corrupted may be the word she uses, but she was already saying I had sharpening OCD before you enlightened me, so I must accept all of the blame there myself.

Mike

 

[thombrogan]

Blame St. Gobain! That Norton 1K/8K is going to open up your fingers a few times just like the ponytail guy said.

 

[gunmike1]

Blame St. Gobain! That Norton 1K/8K is going to open up your fingers a few times just like the ponytail guy said.

I forgot about Mr. Ponytail and his warnings of bleeding yourself via your waterstones in his 3 hour epic (I did learn a LOT from that video though, like the fact that I was completely clueless about waterstones and freehanding). I think it was between the second and third Red Bull that he dropped in that info. I must admit though that I don't follow Mr. Ponytail's advice to a "T", and I do try to keep my fingertips off of the hones, I mainly just use them to guide the blade well back from the hone. However, that incidental contact that I don't even notice on my ceramics will probably begin the crimson flow. As long as it doesn't bleed me as bad as when I lopped my fingers in half lengthwise with my Native my wife probably won't ban the Norton from the house any time soon.

Oh yeah, back on point, how are the Tojiros holding up?


Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The thick edges seen on my Tojiros may be because they're a lower-end product ...

The prices are much higher than ones I have seen with near optimal profiles, I would assume more of a western influence if anything.

... not everyone's throwing D2/D3 knives together.

There is nothing wrong with that steel in certain application. Specifically that would be an ok steel for kitchen knives (some corrosion issues) for people who tend to abuse knives (bang them around in the sink) and don't sharpen them. Leave the edge fairly thick at about 0.015/20" and it will stay workable-dull for a long time.

Shun parer is 0.01" thick at shoulders...

Relatively amusing, I am getting knives primary regound because they are floating just above that level now. Paring knives can be under 0.005" with a full deep hollow. I'd want a flat grind on a general utility knife only if I intended to use it for boning, otherwise a similar profile as well. It is nice to just direct and not have to push. Funny to give such a knife to someone for the first time and watch them see how a knife is supposed to behave. A few years back though a 0.015/15 degree edge on a paring knife would have impressed me, now it is a heavy axe bevel.

-Cliff

 

[ryan9977]

cliff....you said the tojiro's are pricier than knives with better grinds....can you give some examples please.....thanks.......to answer db's question......alot of japanese knives do not come fully sharpened because a knives edge is a personal thing and you should finish it to the point at which you like.....i have never personally seen a knife with no edge....with such a hard steel that would be too much grinding....ryan