tom brown ?

[KiljoyKutlery]

I might be into the Massage thing as long as it was a female instructor giving it and not Tom Brown.

WOW...I suck at spelling huh? that was good..I dont think I will edit..it sounds better that way.:thumbup:

 

[KiljoyKutlery]

Why would anyone believe those mystic stories are true?

I didnt say they were...what I am getting at, is that you are to smart to have to insult someone in a post. You could have directed the OP without insulting anyone..and I am not just pointing at you. I am just saying that there is a way to handle this thread without insulting someone. Kevin has already stepped in, and he sums it up.

 

[stanley_white]

Why would anyone believe those mystic stories are true?

Who says they have to be true?

I have never been to a Tom Brown course.

I do have one of his books and I worked as an Instructor for three years.

I found many of his tales, whether true or not, to be a tool used to get the student / reader to better understand his point quicker.

Kind of like the old "and the moral of the story is" device.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral

If Tom Brown, in his teaching experience, thinks this is the best way to impart wisdom so be it. Maybe he is harking back to ye olde times when folks would sit around the fire and pass knowledge via word of mouth and tall tales etc.

Either way it is his school and he can run it as he sees fit. He's a hell of a lot more professionally successful then I am in life! He must be doing something right!

 

[Rick Marchand]

Why would anyone believe those mystic stories are true?

Good answer, Phil.............

 

[LeeCQC]

I watched some random videos by Brown from youtube.

The "being one with the nature" -idea told by mr. Brown is partly pretty arrogant, imho. He suggests for example, that by moving really quitetly you can see a lot more animals etc. Yeah sure. That also maximises the risk of running into a bear, moose or snake etc. Something mr. Brown fails to mention.

Then he proceeds in laughing at people who hike with a backpack, calling them "aliens to their own environment" and "astronauts". What he again fails to mention is, that in some environments, inadequate gear can get you killed, even if you know the secret scouting survival methods of the Apache. Mr. Brown with his attitude and suggested outdoors gear would not last a day in Lapland during winter.

And what REALLY bugs me in this "living off the land" idea is it's environmental consequences. If everybody would build natural shelters and a fire to warm up every meal instead of using a light tarp and a camp cooker, the woods would soon look like crap. Again, something Mr. Brown fails to mention.

Anyway, I've read a few of his books. The Tracker was a pretty good one, if one likes a wilderness oriented fantasy book. The Way of the Scout was absolutely ludicrous, and I cant recommend it to anyone.

I also read the field quide for "urban and suburban survival". Its mostly pretty damn good. Lots of usefull information, and lots of not-so-usefull-but-pretty-intresting-anyway information. The only thing that bugged me was the most important section (in my environment), i.e. nuclear preparation. Mr. Brown seems to think that nuclear catastrophe = full scale nuclear war, and his thought on the matter was that no-one is gonna survive, so no bother being prepared for that. Well, in Russia, near the Finnish border, there are plenty of Chernobyll -like nuclear plants, so some info on the subject would have been nice. But other than that, a good book :thumbup:

I have no knowledge of mr Browns courses, but if Id have to guess, Id say they are overpriced and overbranded.

You're taking what he says out of context. He's not "laughing" at backpackers, and he's not trying to be insulting by calling them "aliens". He's saying that the pack shouldnt be a crutch. You should be able to survive without the pack, since you might become seperated from it during a real survival situation.

 

[baldtaco-II]

"...if one could only grant his assumptions his conclusions would be magnificent."




(borrowed from -Lewis Mumford 1922)

 

[Mtn.Man]

I have read several of Tom Brown's books and enjoyed them. The more of his books that I read, the more I realized that many if not most of the stories and characters portrayed in them are most likely fictional. Mr. Brown has made mucho dinero claiming he learned his primitive skills from a wandering old Apache Indian that he happened to meet in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey when he was a child. He claims to have spent 10 years learning from Grandfather, as he calls him. I suggest you read a couple of his books to get an idea of whether you'd like to take any of his classes. There's lots of good info in his books. There are many excellent survival schools out there. Mr. Brown's methods of teaching mix Native American spirituality such as Mother Earth worship along with primitive survival and tracking. Mr. Brown has convinced himself and his followers that he is a Native American Indian. He seems to have a cultish following. If that appeals to you and you have mucho dinero, then go for it. Personally I find Tom Brown's schools too expensive for my budget. Let the buyer beware. I've never handled one of Tom Brown's Tracker Knives, nor do I want to. It demonstrates everything I do not want in a knife. Good luck and happy trails.

 

[attej]

You're taking what he says out of context. He's not "laughing" at backpackers, and he's not trying to be insulting by calling them "aliens". He's saying that the pack shouldnt be a crutch. You should be able to survive without the pack, since you might become seperated from it during a real survival situation.

I agree that one should think and train the "whatifs".

But. I've read a few of his books, and he does in many occasions boast with the fact that he carries no equipment with him. And he uses the word "alien" in, IMO, condescending way. A good example is the story "Alien killer" in his book "the way of the scout". In that story the word "alien" is constantly used as an insult.

Not once have I read or heard him say that modern equipment should be used to protect the little nature we have left, or because of safety. In many occasions he claims to be able to survive pretty much anywhere without any equipment (even without proper clothing), and that with the skills he teaches you can survive anywhere too. Now Im not a "survival expert", but I do know something about the woods, and about cold, and in my experience, such claims are false and dangerous.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Now Im not a "survival expert", but I do know something about the woods, and about cold, and in my experience, such claims are false and dangerous.

At first I didn't agree with this statement... but after reading it a few times I changed my mind..... Yes, in your experience such claims are false and dangerous..... not in mine.... in my experience such claims are tangible and inspiring.

With all respect to K. Estella.... I think bringing these points up are a good thing and falls in line with the topic.... just keep it civil.

Individuals have made claims that discredit Tom Brown Jr.'s courses. Some statements are true and backed by proof.... some are false and have been proven to be so...... and some are purely opinions which can never be proved or disputed.

I just hope the original poster can make the distinction.... and draw his own conclusions.

 

[Darteres]

I've never read about or taken anything from Tom Brown Jr., other than glancing at his knife in some threads, but the way some people are attacking him just because they don't believe what he has done is real is shameful to me. I wasn't brought up that way. I read this forum to get inspiration and knowledge. This thread is not a good example of how to do that in the best way possible.

To the original poster, taking the good from this thread and weeding out the bad could be a good intro in how to listen to Tom Brown Jr. and take the good while weeding out the "maybe not entirely true" parts.

I've done more reading about him in the past day because of this thread than I ever would have before today. As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

 

[attej]

At first I didn't agree with this statement... but after reading it a few times I changed my mind..... Yes, in your experience such claims are false and dangerous..... not in mine.... in my experience such claims are tangible and inspiring.

Fair enough.

 

[attej]

I've never read about or taken anything from Tom Brown Jr., other than glancing at his knife in some threads, but the way some people are attacking him just because they don't believe what he has done is real is shameful to me.

I disagree. If he chooses to use amazing stories and claims to promote his business, then critizing them is not "attacking". His books and courses are products, that are advertised and sold, just like any other product. If he makes claims of said products, he should be ready to back them up.

I recommend you read some of his books before making up your mind about this. The internet is not really a reliable source of information in this case.

 

[Elen]

I've nothing to say on this thread's topic except what follows now. First, some quotes from this thread.

In many occasions he claims to be able to survive pretty much anywhere without any equipment (even without proper clothing), and that with the skills he teaches you can survive anywhere too. Now Im not a "survival expert", but I do know something about the woods, and about cold, and in my experience, such claims are false and dangerous.

At first I didn't agree with this statement... but after reading it a few times I changed my mind..... Yes, in your experience such claims are false and dangerous..... not in mine.... in my experience such claims are tangible and inspiring.

Now, I've always been one to respect and practice living and surviving with minimal gear. But as someone who's lived his entire life in a rather cold climate and spent a great deal of time above the Arctic Circle, I also respect certain physical realities.

And honestly... I would like to see the man who can survive "anywhere" with no gear, without even proper clothes. There are places on this earth so hostile to human life that surviving without any gear is not physically possible no matter how skilled you are and how many shamans are playing their witchdrums for you. I would bet my life that mr Brown would end up a corpse in an instant without the proper clothing, if he were to be dropped off in the Siberian permafrost in January. The temperature is almost certainly -50 C, sometimes below -60 C - with a little bad luck, it may near -70 C. The ground is, well, permafrost, and barely an inch or two of snow covers it. Nowhere to hide. Nothing to burn. Nothing to eat. Nothing much to drink. Now, I've been there. And without proper clothes, you're going to be dead real quick, no matter how much of a survival expert you are. And if that isn't cold enough, there's always the Antarctica. Good luck surviving in a pair of boxers out there.

So, to claim that one can survive truly cold environments without proper clothing and gear is not dangerous and false in one man's opinion. It's dangerous and false in actual, proven fact. There is no way to survive there without proper gear. There simply is not. And if someone thinks there is, I encourage them to share that secret with us mortals!

But then, perhaps mr Brown didn't have arctic environments in mind when he stated one can survive nearly anywhere without equipment, as long as one has the skills. Of course, I consider that a rather cheap cop-out. Anyone with a brain and a working body can survive friendly environments with minimal or no gear. But to survive in actually hostile climates takes a bit more than a lot of words and shamanist tales.

Now, that wasn't to attack anyone here or anywhere. It was just to point out that the world is a pretty big place, and not all of it is very friendly to human life. Skills will take a man far, but there are limits to even that.

 

[Darteres]

I disagree. If he chooses to use amazing stories and claims to promote his business, then critizing them is not "attacking". His books and courses are products, that are advertised and sold, just like any other product. If he makes claims of said products, he should be ready to back them up.

I recommend you read some of his books before making up your mind about this. The internet is not really a reliable source of information in this case.

My mind isn't made up one way or the other on him or his books, I just don't care about him. None of what I read on the internet made me interested enough to go get a book of his. I especially don't want to spend money on it if the library doesn't have one.

Criticism is all well and good, but there are several times where he has been alluded to being an out-and-out liar about his tales. In my family, calling someone a liar and not having proof is frowned upon, to put it nicely. My only complaint about all of this is a simple case of ethics.

I believe that in this day/age it's even more important for people to choose their words carefully and think on the implications that may exist. Are his stories true? Maybe. Maybe not. In the end, when he passes on, he will be accountable to whomever he believes in for profiting off shady truth, if in fact there is any.

For a long long time, I believed many years ago that a good man walked on water. My scientific nature doesn't allow me to accept this, but my faith, at that time, did. I no longer believe as I used to believe, but I did learn several good lessons. How much profit has been made from that book?

 

[Mongrel]

ahhh...well...

Just some 'minor' commentary that may help to put Mr. Brown's experiences in perspective. Not to insult, defame, or in anyway disparage him in anyway-but to provide some possibly helpful information.

First off, you really need to understand where his story began and takes place-the NJ PINE BARRENS. I, for better or worse, am 'Jersey born-Jersey bred' and live IN the Pine Barrens (albeit in a community just inside the edge of it) and have lived here for the past 40 years. My parents were familiar with the area from the time they could drive and could navigate the 'pines' by memory or by map and compass if needed. Four wheel drives were uncommon if not unheard of 'back in the day' and one quickly had to learn the techniques necessary for negotiating the white sugar sand roads and trails. Getting stuck was an upleasant situation rectified only by 'walking out', typically anywhere from 1 to 4 hours depending on how deep in you were.

Around here we have always either called it the 'woods' or the 'pines'. As kids my buddies and I would often ride our bikes out into the pines to spend the day exploring or swimming in the streams and lakes. Our moms would put a few sandwiches in our Boy Scout rucksacks and we'd grab our surplus canteens and our 'big knives' and ride out there for the day. (I'm talking 10 year olds on the old 'spider' bikes with the little 20" tires lol). Things have changed like everywhere else and I doubt my daughters could enjoy the same freedom today *sigh*.

Although technically it may have been called a 'wilderness' area at one time, I doubt anyone would even consider it mildy wild at this point in time. All 1.1 million acres (yes-believe it or not in NJ) are surrounded by rural and suburban development and typical NJ farmland (yep-we even still have farmland!). Much of it contains large state forests with state-run camping areas that are patrolled by rangers and watched over by our wonderful Forestry Service. All in all a beautiful treasure that has been saved and protected in the middle of one of the most densely populated states in the nation, and sitting between Philadelphia and New York.

Why is that important to the discussion? Well, in developing or considering survival techniques I believe it is helpful to understand the environment they were developed in and taught in. We all know that there are basic survival skills that can be taught anywhere (fire building, bushcraft, identification of edible and poisonous plants, etc.) but there are somethings that are difficult or impossible to appreciate 'out of context'. This may be one reason why it would be feasible to develop a 'shirt on your back' survival philosophy in an area where the nearest heated building and hot meal are at most a four or five hour walk out. It's also the reason why a couple young boys can ride out into the "middle of nowhere" on bikes with a peanut butter sandwich and a one quart canteen with a mother's blessing (and on some days insistance). Remember that the Pine "Barrens" got the name "barren" because they are devoid of good topsoil-not because they are dangerous wilderness. I say all this to give you a heads up that if you take the course in NJ you'll have plenty of places to grab a cup of coffee and a pastry before you head in.

Secondly, it is interesting to me that the name Tom Brown came up here in a serious discussion. Living in the same area, I have rarely heard his name locally. Close family involved in Scouting and other such pursuits often chuckle about the "guy" (I'm paraphrasing here) from Ocean County who teaches all this "mumbo-jumbo survival stuff" out in the "pines" and gets big bucks for it. I never imagined they were serious.

Personally, with all the information available via the web and in book form I can't imagine paying someone anything to 'teach' me this stuff. Get a book, get a video go out in the yard or a friends yard, or go camping, etc. and try it out yourself. Better yet find A FRIEND or small group of friends and teach each other. This idea of paying someone for knowledge that is readily available for FREE just bugs me to no end. The amount of money for one course would probably buy ten books and enough gear to last you five years in "the woods". If you aren't comfortable with that, then surely you could find a local teacher of 'wilderness techniques' who is not only cheaper but comes without the mystique.

Anyway, hopefully this will be of some help in deciding which way to go.

Here's a few pics for 'effect' taken this past weekend...

Driving in:

Cedar 'swamp' (little dry now):

A few shots of a typical pine barrens 'lake':

 

[Phil Elmore]

Who says they have to be true?

Nobody, I guess, unless you insist on things like truthfulness.

 

[attej]

ahhh...well...

Just some 'minor' commentary that may help to put Mr. Brown's experiences in perspective...

Thanks for a great post. A lot of things concerning mr. Brown makes a lot more sense now

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

I also definately reccomend Ron Hood's vids too. His stuff is excellent, and can save you a lot of money to get you started. www.survival.com.

:thumbup::thumbup: What he said...

 

[akennedy73]

I think Tom Brown's knife sums up the man:

"The genesis of the Tracker Knife began during an interview between Tom Brown Jr. and a journalist over twenty years ago. In the course of the interview, the reporter asked Tom which knife he considered to be the best for survival. Tom thought about it for a minute and responded that the perfect survival knife did not yet exist. "Why not?" the interviewer asked. "Because I have not yet designed it," replied Tom."

now, that's ego...

 

[Rick Marchand]

I've nothing to say on this thread's topic except what follows now. First, some quotes from this thread.

Now, I've always been one to respect and practice living and surviving with minimal gear. But as someone who's lived his entire life in a rather cold climate and spent a great deal of time above the Arctic Circle, I also respect certain physical realities.

And honestly... I would like to see the man who can survive "anywhere" with no gear, without even proper clothes. There are places on this earth so hostile to human life that surviving without any gear is not physically possible no matter how skilled you are and how many shamans are playing their witchdrums for you. I would bet my life that mr Brown would end up a corpse in an instant without the proper clothing, if he were to be dropped off in the Siberian permafrost in January. The temperature is almost certainly -50 C, sometimes below -60 C - with a little bad luck, it may near -70 C. The ground is, well, permafrost, and barely an inch or two of snow covers it. Nowhere to hide. Nothing to burn. Nothing to eat. Nothing much to drink. Now, I've been there. And without proper clothes, you're going to be dead real quick, no matter how much of a survival expert you are. And if that isn't cold enough, there's always the Antarctica. Good luck surviving in a pair of boxers out there.

So, to claim that one can survive truly cold environments without proper clothing and gear is not dangerous and false in one man's opinion. It's dangerous and false in actual, proven fact. There is no way to survive there without proper gear. There simply is not. And if someone thinks there is, I encourage them to share that secret with us mortals!

But then, perhaps mr Brown didn't have arctic environments in mind when he stated one can survive nearly anywhere without equipment, as long as one has the skills. Of course, I consider that a rather cheap cop-out. Anyone with a brain and a working body can survive friendly environments with minimal or no gear. But to survive in actually hostile climates takes a bit more than a lot of words and shamanist tales.

Now, that wasn't to attack anyone here or anywhere. It was just to point out that the world is a pretty big place, and not all of it is very friendly to human life. Skills will take a man far, but there are limits to even that.

Fair enough..... I should have explained myself better.... To take these words literally is a mistake. It is a broad statement... There will always be extreme situations that you cannot be prepared for. I don't think anyone could survive the example you laid out, Elen. We have to be realistic and my statement hinted otherwise... for that I am sorry.

Where I live the temperature will only drop to about -17C.... Where I train(Northern Ontario), temperatures can drop to -45C. I regularly train in -15C to -35C during the winter and can tell you as a witness and from personal experience that these things are humanly possible.

Being dropped of in the Siberian permafrost area without proper clothing is an EXTREME situation...... Antarctica?..... out of the question.

You are bombarded with broad statements everyday..... "Seatbelts will save your life in a car accident".... "Smoking will shorten your life"... "Blah-blah, laundry detergent will get out the toughest stains"... "Milk does a body good." (unless you are lactose intolerant) You should be smart enough to understand the limitations of these statements. It is far too easy to take someones words out of context.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.