Tom 'Samurai' Cruise

golok

golok

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I just digested a report which states that Tom Cruise sprung a few surprises as a Samurai in his latest movie.

Apparently, he was such a natural with regard to sword-play that even his Japanese co-stars who are more experienced than him with a katana have heaped praises on Samurai Tom.

I was curious if swordmanship with the katana is that easy to master. Not so from what I have read and heard.

I thought it takes years to give a credible performance with the katana.
 
I will say that he looked pretty good in the bokken scenes. Of course, movie magic can make someone look pretty good in fairly short order. A far cry from actually being able to "do".

I was watching the stunt footage for Underworld, and the firearms guy said a lot of actors wear shades during shooting scenes because they're flinching like crazy! Most of the cast in that flick were Brits, and had NO firearms experience.
 
I don't know I've heard that same story again and again and again. That guy that plays Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings movies... according to the choreographer he's the finest natural swordsman he's ever seen. Same thing for Adrian Paul in Highlander according to that choreographer etc. etc. Personally I'm guessing most of it is hype.
 
Some actors are very good at working very hard at accomplishing good choreography in regards to martial arts. Hand/foot arts are a little more difficult to accomplish good results with, especially if the directors want big flashy movements.

When it comes to swords and the like, it is not terribly hard to get the fundamental concepts and choreography understood. After a certain point in time you start working on refinements and figuring out nuances. Japanese swordsmanship is an art of precision, and having a rudimentary ability to swing a sword is not terribly difficult to achieve (oooh, blasphemy! :D)

I'll give the guys credit that they often put a lot of work into their choreography, but bear in mind these guys are trying to excel at the appearance of swordsmanship, not necessarily swordsmanship itself...at least when it comes to job-required choreography. I think it's really cool when an actor, etc. desires to continue training beyond their jobs, but more often than not the scope and intent of their training is limited.
 
it takes no skill to look good. but there are so many small details that are very important. it's not easy to master. you can swing a sword. but swinging it and cutting are two different things. you can block a sword. bt if you don't get out of the way it'll still get you. tom looked good. but I noticed a big difference between him and some of the people who actually practiced this art. there was a toyama ryu guy in there who was quite impressive. and like any other art. japanese swordsmanship of any style is impossible to master. there is always room for improvement. I say this from the view of a dedicated student of ishi yama ryu batto jutsu. if you want to see for yourself. practice any martial art for 5 years. then compare yourself to the sensei. and you'll find that although you've improved. you're still a beginer.
 
Sure, its as easy to master the sword as it is to master anything;)

Oh, and what Rob said.

I've observed what Sak says too. I noted that one of my instructors can not only anticipate an opponents blow, void , guard or ward and act on that, but he also can make some subtle stance movemnents and shifts that ACTUALLY CAUSE the opponent to do what the instructor wants them to do, leading them into his strike. Scary. Bad enuf when a sparring partner can read you, worse when he can control you.

Keith
 
ya. but he still hasn't mastered it. my sensei is considered second best in the world and he hasn't mastered it.
 
My comment on mastery was an ill attempt at humor, as I agree with your swordsmanship mastery point (and would extend the comment to all sword work, not just Japanese, then I'd step back further and apply it to all disciplines and vocations of life).

After years of eastern and wester MA, I see chance, luck, and other factors sneak in to help the worst and hinder the best at times. Best you can do is internalize and make what you know second nature, frees the mind up for the uneventualities. And they still getcha.

And of course, mastery would be hollow if it were obtainable. Is it not the journey (and not the goal) that is the true goal?

Keith
 
Hehe- I remember reading about some 20-year old pop star who had "mastered" the guitar. Good luck...
 
Originally posted by Triton
That guy that plays Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings movies... according to the choreographer he's the finest natural swordsman he's ever seen. Same thing for Adrian Paul in Highlander according to that choreographer etc. etc.
Click to expand...

What's even funnier is that it's the same choreographer. Bob Anderson who's been training actors with swords for decades, whenever asked about the most recent one, ALWAYS says, "He's the most disciplined, hardest working, natural swordsman I've ever worked with."

This was apparently also true of Errol Flynn, Charlton Heston, Cary Elwes, and Richard Gere (these are just the ones I've actually heard, I'm sure there are others). Now, I suppose it's possible that each actor he works with is actually better than any who came before, but I bet it's just his standard non-ego bruising statement whenever a camera turns on him.

For that matter, if I remember right, his title of Swordmaster derives from the fact that he was extensively trained in stage combat, so I doubt he'd fair much better than I would in a real swordfight.
 
Stage fighting is not free form swird duelling. FLashy doesn't = effective combat, not always anyway. Heck, stage fighters spend all their time fightin way outside engagement range, so that a wayward strike won't hit.

Keith
 
Where as it is true that the film industry does have a certain amount of ingenuineness and the egos are very fragile and it's often a case of 25% talent and 75% politics. and yes it can be treacle sweet in the way everyone is so false with their double standards of outward mutual slaps on the back with one hand while hiding the other hand that holds the knife.

It also has to be said that this is not the first time by far that TC has shown an impressive display of natural hand eye coordination. The cue work in The Colour of Money, or the bottle juggling in Cocktail are probably the most famous examples
 
Guys,
Interesting!1 Don't do swords much,MA & knives yes!My take on why some seem to read your mind is kind of simple,asked amy teacher,"how in the heck did you nail me,you didn't even look at me"!Ans.was,"I felt you when I blocked,you had to be where you were!! Talking, he pointed some things out,when you have done MA so much your mind is like a puter,you see & no longer think,you just know!! I'll try to explain this way,student of mine said,"How do you move in so fast & be in the spot where I can't do anything"! I said you just do it!Have any of you "ever"had enough time in doing something,you just did it,your time,experience, you no longer had to think,etc.!! That's (to me)why the Masters are so good!! Sorry if I hogged your thread or forum,just found this topic interesting!
Jim
 
The Masters can normally "see" the other guy's next move but a lot of people think it is hogwash until they feel the sharpened edge pointing at their heart or the blade next to their neck.

The founder of Aikido had that ability. Even he couldn't really explain it. He just knew.
 
I have an hr tape of old footage of him,doing his art at 73 ,75 & before his death,guy that sold it to me said it was rare,really amazing .looking at someone in black & white ,doing the things he did!
some of tape is grainy but you still see everything! Never seen another like it!!
Jim
 
they say that its impossible to master using a sword. its a never ending learning experience and even if considered a master you will always learn new things.
 
I read this comment from an Eagle Claw kungfu student who was quoting his master.

I suspect that the person who said that Tom Cruise was a natural swordsman was referring to 'form' - this praise could well be corroborated by looking at his performance in Cocktail and The Color of Money. I believe Paul Newman also got him into motor racing. These would all point to good coordination and spatial awareness.

In 'The Ace Factor' by Michael Spick, it was observed that the 'Ace' pilots in WWI/II (the ones who didn't get killed too quickly - the 20% that got 80% of the kills) were not usually the best or most natural pilots, but those who most accurately assessed their own abilities and flew within them, part of the overall picture of 'situational awareness'.

As a kungfu practitioner I see martial art training as a system that can be broken down into a number of aspects: physical conditioning, technique, application, situational awareness and psychology. If one is missing, you are not likely to be able to fight effectively. We all have a natural starting level of ability in each of these, although our training usually develops these in order. When we become masters (although we never stop learning) our approach to combat tends to take the opposite order, we acheive the art of not fighting and if this is not possible our application of technique is so refined that our aging bodies are not a handicap brute force is unlikely to succeed and so is a last resort. Some training (like wushu, western boxing, even JKD :footinmou ) misses some of these aspects and on a film set you are likely to miss the last two completely and most of the third.

Because film training is only likely to cover the first two aspects in any detail, the person who complimented TC can only have been assessing these criteria. While is is possible that he is well endowed in the other areas, I don't see any evidence either way.
 
golok said:
I was curious if swordmanship with the katana is that easy to master. Not so from what I have read and heard.

I thought it takes years to give a credible performance with the katana.
Click to expand...

In answer to your original question, and without prejudice to the skill of Japanese sword stylists, one kungfu master who I have trained with stated that japanese swordplay relies on the quality of the weapon, while the chinese relies on the technique of the practitioner.

This was not meant as an insult to the japanese but a reference to the low quality of the chinese hardware - some chinese techniques would result in the practitioner being cut if a japanese style sword were used.

My observation (I haven't trained in japanese technique) has been that the japanese concentrate on simple techniques with extreme precision and focus -a lot of this is mental training and something that actors are good at.

For this reason I do not think it would take too long to appear proficient in the use of the katana.

I really enjoyed the film, btw.
 
simple parlour trix...sleight of hand can be learned.

Jim (Quackipuss!)--I agree, I call it the "combat computer." It is the thing in W MA that can make looking through a closedface helm, with 1" by 2" slit eyeholes and a few small breather holes feel like you're wearing an open face helm. When ya start, ya feel blind. After a few years, you don't even see the helm anymore, you just look through it. Your brain is able to absorb a lot of info quick, and a slight movement of the head up or down gives yor brain enuf to paint the pic inn yer head.

Combat computer also sees vectors for limbs, bodies, and weapons, openings, without having to watch anything more than the same spot on the oponent. Kinda trains your peripheral vision to be quite useful.

Keith
 
I'll step in for a minute with another view.
It seems to me that many, if not most, of the recent movies that use physical fights with swords and other styles of fighting depend heavily on camera editing and short sequences of two to three moves assembled together to build a complete fight. If you've seen the second Frazer Mummy movie with the two gals doing the "Egyptian" fight, you may have noticed the two stars doing very short takes that involved brief sequential moves before cutting to another camera angle or viewpoint.
The same style was used in Chicago for most of the dance scenes with the stars, particularly Zeta-Jones.
Is that for dramatic effect, to be trendy, to spice up the action, to add zip, or is it because the actors involved are less able to maintain the flow of longer sequences?
Contrast the classic (admittedly "stage" fighting) sword fights in Mark Of Zorro between Basil Rathbone (an accomplished fencer) & Tyrone Power, and in Robin Hood between Rathbone and Errol Flynn. Also, the more recent Princess Bride between Elwes and Patinkin. Stunt doubles, i.e. sword coaches, were used here & there in all three movies, but there are sequences where the choreography is well done, the stars themselves are obviously doing the bladework, and the action continues for much longer before the camera cuts to another view.
If you can "master" six moves between "Action!" and "Cut", then master six more moves, then six more, you can probably put on a pretty good show when the film is all spliced together on a master negative.
I contrast Zeta-Jones with Cyd Charisse and Ginger Rogers (slightly different dance styles, yes), among others. Older dancers could sustain longer sequences without interruptions and editing, it seems.
Could be wrong, but I think today in sword fights it's more camera and editing than individual skill.
I can still watch the older Zorro and Robin Hood and still admire those sword fights, even though I've seen them both at least 20 times.
I can't do that with the Egyptian Mummy fight, it's too frenetic & jumps around too much. I can't even watch Chicago all the way through, hard on my eyes, the camera never holds still during the dance scenes.
What do you think?
Denis
 
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