Tomahawk Q&A Thread

FSCJedi

FSCJedi

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Oct 19, 2002
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I got in contact with Dwight McLemore and asked him if he'd be interested in stopping by here a time or two a week and answering some questions on the topic of tomahawks. I bet he'd even answer a few about the tomahawk/bowie combination, although since this is a tomahawk forum, let's try to steer away from bowie questions just by themselves. :) He was even nice enough to give me the names of a few other people to invite to post answers on this thread. I managed to invite Pete Kautz (who politely declined), Dr. Van Horne, and Andy Prisco, so hopefully they'll be popping up on here as well.

So anyways, I think the best way to start this thread off is to just post a question or two that everyone might have. Numbering them might make it easier for anyone who replies to reference the specific question, too. I'll start it off:

1.) In The Fighting Tomahawk, you make only a passing reference to tomahawks with spikes, and don't offer any examples of thier use, historically or tactically. Is this due to lack of material to reference, or because you don't think the poll of a tomahawk should be used as a weapon?
 
2.) How do you suggest we find a proper length for both tomahawk and longknife to use? I've heard the "fist to elbow" way of determining hawk length. What's the opinion on that way? However, is anything over 7" (which you say is a considered a longknife) ok as more of a "whatever you're comfortable using" deal, or is there a good way to choose knife length? Where should the balance be for the longknife, as well?

I can't be the only one with questions, can I? :confused:
 
I'm interested to see any of the info that comes up, especially spike use/tactics. Sorry I don't have any original questions yet... :o I'll look through my copy of the book and see if anything new comes to mind.
 
Before I start giving my opinions on this thread I want to let everyone know about the data that my opinions are based upon. When I carried out research for my dissertation on warclubs and warfare among the Indians of the Southeastern United States (published 1993) I examined various types of data. I looked at historical accounts of warclub and tomahawk use from Spanish, French and English sources from the colonial period (16th-18th centuries) as well as early American sources. I also examined ethnographic accounts of tomahawk use in the 19th century. I examined archaeological reports of Indian burials that showed evidence of warclub and tomahawk fractures, which gives some indication of how the weapons were used. In addition, I looked at anthropological information about how warclubs were used in various societies around the world. All of this, combined with my own martial arts training and lots of experimentation with handling warclubs and tomahawks has led to my opinions regarding their use.

How do you suggest we find a proper length for both tomahawk and longknife to use?
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Warclubs or tomahawks that are designed to be wielded in one hand are all typically about the same length around the world. They are roughly the length of your forearm (or upper arm), so the "fist to elbow" method of measuring them is a good rule of thumb. The weapon essentially adds another "arm segment" to the length of your arm. In other words, your upper arm, forearm and tomahawk are all about the same length. If the length of the tomahawk gets much longer it becomes unwieldy. The weight of the head makes it hard to stop or change direction with one hand once you have begun to swing it, if the handle is too long. However, with a forearm-length handle it is quite easy to wield and you can become pretty deft with it.

An additional observation: back in the 1980's some archaeologists did an experiment with an atl-atl, or spearthrower, that sheds some light on the force exerted by a tomahawk. A spearthrower was a forearm-length wooden handle that was hooked over the butt of a spear. It acted as a lever to increase the length of a person's arm and therefore create more force when throwing a spear. The early ancestors of American Indians used it to punch spears through the hides of tough critters like the Wooly Mammoth. The archaeologists found that the forearm-length spearthrower increased the force of a spear's impact 60 fold, if my memory is serving me correctly. In other words, it hit a Mammoth with 60 times the force of a spear thrown by hand without a spearthrower. This suggests that if you swing a tomahawk, say in an overhand strike, it is hitting a target with about 60 times the force that your fist would hit it with if you weren't using a tomahawk. The added weight of the head probably means that you are actually hitting with more force than that. Focus all of that force into the tiny surface area of the blade and there is a phenomenal amount of pressure per square inch. That explains why you can hit a piece of log with a hatchet and split it into kindling, but hitting the same piece of log with your fist results in no effect (to the log).
 
Dr. Van Horne, welcome and thank you for taking your time to contribute to this thread.

Wow. :eek: I had thought of applying geometry to tomahawks (angles of attack, curvature of a spike, blade shape, etc...), but for some reason I hadn't thought about figuring out the physics of a tomahawk strike. I now have an even deeper respect for this tool's weapon characteristics.

A question I have asked once before and got rather vague responses to is one I hope you might be able to answer:

3.) What is the historical significance of piercing a tomahawk blade with a heart or weaping heart?
 
I honestly don't recollect ever encountering an explanation for this, nor had I considered it. Does anyone know if they were more commonly included as a feature of tomahawks made by either the French or British? French made trade tomahawks, especially the "presentation" types, often seemed to be more ornately decorated than their British or American colonial counterparts. I once saw an 18th century brass or bronze French-made presentation pipe tomahawk from Canada that was ornately covered in engraved Fleur-de-lis, scrollwork and writing. I wouldn't doubt that the heart could simply be a stylistic motif introduced by the French (or British), but I really don't know.
 
I asked my friend Mark Williams, who forged my tomahawk, about your reply. He's a wealth of hawk history as well, so it's possible he might know something about it being French or English. I'll post about it when he replies back.

4.) A variant on the first question, were spike hawks commonly used by anyone (indian, mountainman, rev. war troops)? If so, ware the backspikes usually a spike or stunted blade?
 
_".) In The Fighting Tomahawk, you make only a passing reference to tomahawks with spikes, and don't offer any examples of thier use, historically or tactically. Is this due to lack of material to reference, or because you don't think the poll of a tomahawk should be used as a weapon?"

Answer_ My intent for The Fighting Tomahawk was for it to be a fundamental text. I wanted to use a common, utilitarian, daily use tool that would have been around during the 18th & 19th century and still have some applications to todays world.. Again it's primary function was as a tool and back-up weapon. At the time of the writing eveyone was captivated by the Lagana Tomahawk with it's spike. ( and justifiably so) people were punching holes in helmets, busting in doors/ammo boxes, and generally having a grand ole time and covering a lot of applications for the spike. There are lots of examples of spikes on tomahawks from that time frame, but from what I've seen these were not nearly as prevalent on Hawks as they were on boarding axes and earlier battle axes. The hammer poll met the criteria that I looked far so that's what I used. I had some bad experiences training with spike hawks getting pushed back into my face so it was a trade off between a bruise or a hole. I choose the bruise. Bottom-Line, I don't like spikes, just a personal perference, nothing more. I wish I could give you some great historical or technical reason for this but there isn't any, nor am I going to waste valuable training time chasing down stats on how spikes were or were not used. It's not important to me. Here at the school we trained with Cold Steel's Trail Hawk which has a hammer poll. This was a good representative size, it was not that heavy, and it throws very accurately. We had some problems with the handles not holding up to a lot of abuse, but otherwise it has met our needs and is very affordable. Don't get me wrong, I love the American Tomahawk Companies products. I highly recommend them to eveyone, but for me with these old hand and arm injuries, the lighter trail hawk meets my needs. My good friend and associate Steve Huff has stripped the paint off the head and removed the varnish from the handle. He has done a bit of period carving on both and produced a very period authentic hawk. I often get asked questions like this to justify why I wrote this or that or choose this or that weapon or approach. The real answer is " Because I wanted too, and it's worked out well in training. That's all....no magic here. As far as historcal references to the spike, I did not find any that addressed it's being used specifically. All that means is that they did not spell out what end of the head hit the victim. Now that what I found back then and I've no desire to go looking for historical justification to support the use of the spike. I'll take it on face value that it will work. Don't need anything more.

About length of Tomahawk handles....I read somewhere about "the hand to elbow rule" and that is probably a good go-by but it has to fit you and your swing. There are some really good hawks with smaller handles. You decide.

I hope this answered your question.

Best
Dwight

BTW- Glad to see that Dr. Van Horne has you guy's attention. Listen quitely and you will learn much. I know I did.
 
I can vouch for the tomahawks force of impact as mentioned by Dr. Van Horne. A few months ago I shot a possum that was living under my father in laws shed and generally making a nuissance of himself. The gunshot dropped him in his tracks. I helped him leave this world with a blow to the head with a Cold Steel Trail Hawk. I swung it moderately hard, but made accuracy my primary concern. The hawk went through the possums head and imbedded itself in the ground up to it's haft. A second blow had the same effect on the possums chest. The hawk was stunningly effortless in it's ability to cut through flesh. Also take note that I had it hair popping sharp.
 
this is a great idea jedi :)

i always wanted to know what Dwight thought of Bill Bagwell's article in the SOF mag. in which he doesn't have much good to say of the tomahawk as a weapon? it seems Bill only looks at the value of a weapon from the perspective of a duelist where two men would be squarring off against one another.
 
First of all I have the greatest respect for Bill Bagwell's knife making skills. He is indeed a legend. I've seen some videos of him sparing too and he takes care of himself very, very, well. From some Army associates he is also a great teacher. His writings are always interesting and thought provoking. What I like about him is that HE GIVES YOU HIS TAKE ON SOMETHING and lets you know directly how he feels from his background and experience. Whether I agree with him or not, I always listen to what he has to say and I would recommend that approach to anyone when you read his SOF article on the Tomahawk. That's Mr. Bagwell's honest opinion, I personally think that he needs to read some more literature on the subject, and perhaps practice with the weapon more but his view is definitely worth considering. I know in my mind the effectiveness of the weapon and am comfortable with it. Mr. Bagwell is not, and that's o.k. by me. Bill likes big knives and puts them out in front of most everthing else. I am sort of the same way too. One thing about the edged weapon community is that one can find a great diversity of opinion, and that is GOOD. One does not have to agree with everything a man believes to make him your friend. I am looking forward to meeting Bill Bagwell one of these days just to tell him what a great contribution he has made to the Western Martial Arts. BTW he is also not very impressed with the Kukri either.

I hope that's a good answer and doesn't " Piss, the world off."

Best
Dwight
 
I think Dwight's reply about spiked tomahawks is pretty much on the money from the historical perspective. Tomahawks were common because they were essentially multipurpose hatchets. The spike is a specialized feature that actually gets in the way when you want a handy little portable hatchet that you can carry around in the wilderness to chop wood, dispatch possums and fight with.

They were also common because they were inexpensive. The typical colonial tomahawk was banged out by a blacksmith quickly by simply taking a rectangular iron scrap, heating it, bending it around a handle, then beating the edge to make the flared blade. Quick, easy, and affordable for money-strapped colonial working class guys and as inexpensive trade items for Indians. Putting a spike on it would require some extra work and design modifications on the blacksmith's part.

Since I have been mainly interested in understanding the use of historic tomahawks, I have only experimented with cheap tomahawks constructed in a manner identical to that of colonial blacksmiths. My tomahawks are hatchets made in India in the same way that colonial tomahawks were made, by a village blacksmith bending a strap of scrap iron over a handle and flaring it.

By the way Dwight, the listen and learn thing goes both ways-
 
Hi Wayne,,

Any relation to Carla Van Horne , Leather Crafter?

Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing your expertise.

p.s. There will be a hammer-in at the Trackrock Campgrounds and Stable in Blairsville Ga, on September 24th and 25.

Feel free to come for a visit.

Lots of Bladesmithing will be afoot. I'll most likely be forging tomahawks in the manner you describe, but with modern tool-steel.
 
Hi Mark, thanks for the welcome. I don't know Carla, but all the Van Hornes trace descent to an ancestor who immigrated to New Amsterdam in the 1600's. The Blairsville get-together sounds like fun. Are there other things afoot at the event along with the blacksmithing?
 
Smithing and leathercraft is pretty much the main objective of the event. That and eating some great food and telling lies.

The campground is a nice place to visit on it's own right.

Here's their website www.trackrock.com
 
Mr Williams is right about trackrock valley its one of the most beautiful valleys in north GA. Does the week end you have picked coincide with the GA mountain fair? If so go over and look for the old guys making white oak shingles. They slpit them with a mallet and a froe and one of them cuts the bark off the edges with a very old hatchet. When the fair is over they have a huge pile of shingles and they pull off a roof made of tin and replace it with the white oak shingles they have made. I could sit and watch them all day. Mark Cook
 
witchhunter said:
this is a great idea jedi :)
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Thanks. :) I love posting on this forum just as much as any of you, and I thought it'd be nice if we could get some real experts, regardless of what Mr. McLemore says ;), in here to answer some of our questions.

I definately appreciate all the Answer folk stopping over for this. It sure means a lot to us doin' the askin'. :thumbup:

Dwight, thanks for your reasoning as to leaving the spike out of training. Doesn't bother me one bit, I was just curious. Sorry to hear that Mr. Bagwell doesn't care for the tomahawk. I might end up stationed in NC and I was sort of hoping I might be able to get some hawk/knife combo training from him. Oh well, I've got no problem with just enhancing my longknife usage. I'll just train using my left hand as my primary hand. :D

5.) What do any/each of you think defines a tomahawk as a tomahawk, compared to, say, a hand axe (hatchet)?
 
Wayne Van Horne said:
I think Dwight's reply about spiked tomahawks is pretty much on the money from the historical perspective. Tomahawks were common because they were essentially multipurpose hatchets. The spike is a specialized feature that actually gets in the way when you want a handy little portable hatchet that you can carry around in the wilderness to chop wood, dispatch possums and fight with.
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6.) Ok, where does the spontoon tomahawk fit into all this? If I remember correctly from reading Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men, wasn't it the Souix who used this type most? What made them choose this more specific weapon over the variable weapon/tool of a regular axe?

7.) Sharpening the hooking edge of a tomahawk seems to be an option on most current production tomahawks that are intended to see combat. However, it seems to me that this would even have practical applications in everyday use. For example, ease in skinning large game, hooking/clearing dense brushy areas, etc... Are there any historical examples of a smith/owner doing this?
 
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