tomahawk steel choice.

[rustyrazor]

lets say, cutting ability aside, i was looking to make a tomahawk purely for rough use, what steel do you think would hold up best to severe abuse and prying.

 

[foxx]

Dan Winkler uses S7, and has started using H13 for his breaching axes. I have the GG&G Battlehawk, made from S7. I've beat the $h1t out of it. Cut through a steel chair, thrown it, hit cinder blocks, and it doesn't change the edge much at all. Hitting another hawk with the very tip did remove a very small amount of steel, but I hit them at full power by accident.

 

[jwaj]

Like foxx said, S7 and H13. Here's a review Jay did of his Winkler Breaching Axe. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ves-II-Breaching-Combat-Axe?highlight=winkler

even 5160 is tough.

 

[boerboel84]

5160 steel is tough

 

[SamuraiDave]

5160 is tough. However, I feel that there are better steels out there that will handle abuse better.
S7 and H13 are at the top of my list for abuse.

5160 would be something I want for woodwork. Not something to break concrete and disassemble the body of cars just cause I can.

I feel that 5160 is more of a steel for tools that will be used, Axes, knives, chisels real tools that see real work. Nothing wrong with it, but in abusive axe situations I'm not sure if it would handle as well as others.
S7 and H13 are steels that you build jackhammer bits out of.
Abuse is S7's middle name, and H13 is probably better at it being what I have read.

 

[Kentucky]

S7,S5 and H13..A benifit of H13 is that it keeps its hardness at high heats..Thats why we blacksmiths use it for hot tools..

 

[rustyrazor]

yeah, i have one of Dan Winklers Sayok hawks and i've seen them in action. is the H13 any more rust resistant than the S7? i know the S7 is tough enough, but if i could find that without having to take as good care as the Sayok, i would be a happy man.

 

[Square_peg]

...A benifit of H13 is that it keeps its hardness at high heats..Thats why we blacksmiths use it for hot tools..

S7 does that fairly well, too.

 

[JackHammer]

52100 is another tough one.

 

[1066vik]

4140 has been used in a lot of production axe heads.
5160 is easier to find.

 

[JayGoliath]

is the H13 any more rust resistant than the S7?

My Horton S7 rusts quicker than Winkler H13 . But the again it might just be the application of it. Horton chopper went through tree saps whilst the Winkler H13 chewed through cinders and concretes.

I will opt for 5160, L6 and 3V for a full tang hawk. To me tough is just one of the requirements, i need the axe to be sharp enough.

 

[rustyrazor]

My largest concern is overall strength. As in what about the ability to lever on it... lets say if you were using the spike to pry open a door. how much impact would that have on the selection of steel. i know that is what I want my hawks end up being capable of, and the last think i want to worry about is the strength of the spike or the handle.

 

[Wolf_1989]

Actually I've never managed to break a tomahawk. I've broke a few handles but never the heads. I've got a 1994 CS Rifleman's Hawk which has endured all kinds of abuse for years. How tough do you expect a tomahawk to be? Sticking the spike into an engine block would be impressive but will something like that ever come up?

 

[Square_peg]

How tough do you expect a tomahawk to be? Sticking the spike into an engine block would be impressive but will something like that ever come up?

 

[wildmike]

Steve Liley from coal creek forge makes hawks from jackhammer bits.

The hammer poll hawk he made me has held up really well.

 

[foxx]

My largest concern is overall strength. As in what about the ability to lever on it... lets say if you were using the spike to pry open a door. how much impact would that have on the selection of steel. i know that is what I want my hawks end up being capable of, and the last think i want to worry about is the strength of the spike or the handle.

The thickness and geometry of the handle and the spike will have as much to do with it's strength, as well as it's length. A short(10") and thick(1/4") hawk should be very strong. You won't be able to pry with enough leverage to break that handle, unless you are adding a longer tube to the handle. Even then, it would probably slip off your target? And if the spike is thick, it shouldn't break either. Often, the edge of a hawk or axe is harder than the rest. The handle of a full tang hawk should be much softer, and able to take shock and flexing.
As the length of the hawk increases, it may become more of an issue, as it gains in leverage. How strong are you, and what are you planning on prying open?
I've used pry bars to move 5,000 lbs safes, and no tomahawk that I've seen would be long enough to get enough leverage. Nor are you going to pry open solid steel doors, even with a real prybar. I've not breached any doors, cars or aircraft, but that steel is thin and can be cut open. A spike may even just rip out what you are trying to pry, like a can opener. Real prybars are much wider at the point of contact.
In short, I doubt most humans are strong enough to break a full tang hawk by prying. If the tip of the spike is very thin, maybe that would sheer off? If you get an RMJ, GG&G, a Winkler Breaching axe, an Ontario full tang hawk, or any quality hawk, I think you would have a difficult time breaking it.

 

[rustyrazor]

Hey guys, Great feedback... and believe me, I do take all that into consideration. I have used all of the above tools on occasion and i do know these things are pretty tough, However... all things being equal (ie: geometry and handle length) I'm purely talking about the steel itself, as its my name going on it. I read a lot about toughness, and very little about "strength" in such situations. i would even settle for a graph saying "it takes XXX amount of force to bend/break XXX steel" comparing them, like you see for toughness and edge holding. my reason for asking all of this is that I plan on making my own hawk (or two, for co workers) and like i said, I want it to be the best i can make it... including the materials used. these things do have to be able to pry and lever, so i want to be able to stand behind them.

 

[rustyrazor]

Actually I've never managed to break a tomahawk. I've broke a few handles but never the heads. I've got a 1994 CS Rifleman's Hawk which has endured all kinds of abuse for years. How tough do you expect a tomahawk to be? Sticking the spike into an engine block would be impressive but will something like that ever come up?

...the answer to that is truthfully "i don't know, but it might" funny enough, that had happened on my last tour. one of my guys disabled a motorcycle by piercing the engine block with a hawk, so as dumb as it sounds it can happen. these guys use these things in ways most "normal" people wouldn't imagine, or ever need to even think about. Prying doors open, hacking through 12" thick mud walls because they are too high to climb and smashing safe doors... these things are common occurences, when you only have your imagination and the tools you are carrying at your disposal. So honestly I can't say what it will be used for, but i know i want it to be reliable.

 

[Rapt_up]

The force necessary to break a hawk is an easy calculation, as long as you're talking pure strength/bending not impact/brittleness.

it would be in the 10's of thousand of pounds force. for example mid grade carbn steel has a yield strength of something like 60,000 psi. so if there was a half a square inch cross sectional area that would be 30,000 pounds... How strong are you?

on the other hand if its made very thin...its strength get less, based on the area of the cross section.... high strength steels can be 150,000 psi or more...

one site shows S7 has a yield strength of 55,000psi and a tensile strength of 92,000psi (where yield means permanent bending, and tensile means breaking under tension)

 

[rustyrazor]

Outstanding info chief, thanks... and no, i'm not that strong, lol. can you direct me to one of these sites so I can spend another month or two on there reading all their info as well?