Too many knives ?

[Ghost Kobun]

Topic this morning: How many knives does one require to be safe? As a professor who trains Chefs, we carry a small briefcase which holds about three knives. I train various soldiers who in their jobs carry two knives. A bodyguard that I talk to on various occasions carries three.

I was re reading some sayoc kali history & saw a picture of guys carying four knives ontheir belt. One I have great respect for this style & of course these people would modify their carry tactics on the street. But how many knives are these guys carrying,& is it realistic in our modern society to carry such a great number of blades.

1) Every blade could carry a conceled weapon charge.
2)How practical would it be to carry more then two.
3)All blade all the time means that a less agressive response is almost impossible.Thus all responses are fatal,unless the style has some empty handed responses. But of what I have seen & read not many empty handed tecniques are present. Bladed at all times...

Not knocking it purpose--sayoc is meant for warfare--period. As I also train police officers in the fine arts, I warn them about styles such as Sayoc.I t just scares me that soo many people know this very effective art.

Sub question: How selective are the instructors in selecting students. It again scares the pantsof me that a 21 year old puff up ego is carrying five blades, armed with vital templates downloaded off the internet.

I carry one blade, I find that moraly,it is enough to protect myself.

I would see the need to carry more in warfare--but fortunatly for me in live in a place where the need is non existant.

Kobun

 

[Ghost Kobun]

Furthermore: I understand that sayoc also takes the time to imprint in their students mind that all the tecniques have come from vital lessons. These lessons where learned threw warfare & that loss of life was in vast numbers.

Again, I am NOT an expert on the sayoc topic,and am wondering if the style from blade is interchangable to the empty hand. Like most Kali concepts.

As student of Kali I love the interchangable nature of movements,as the blade/stick movement can be change into non lethal alternatives.

But when the fog of war rolls in, that the non lethal movements can be changed into lethal movements.

Kobun

 

[fishmonger]

Hi All, Hi Kobun , In my opinion Kobun you have answered your own question here , you state you are not an expert on Sayoc Kali yet offer warnings about systems like them ? You also state that sayoc kali is meant for war period ! how do you know that ? Have a look at what they teach and you will see they offer empty hand work as well as blade such as "finger touch method " as for how many blades to carry , thats up to the individual , i am not a sayoc kali student and i carry at least 2 knives , does that make me odd? as a kali practioner your blade methods should cross over to empty hand which is what you stated , which is where the non lethal stuff comes into play , and keep in mind you can only use 2 blades at a time but what if you use them as projectiles ?, the rest are insurance , as i understand the rigs the sayoc guys wear are training aids not carry rigs , kobun i would suggest you go over to the sayoc public forum and read the stickies before you post stuff like this , the sayocs are good people who are the target of a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding , better not to add fuel to the fire , and lets not forget one very important fact , we dont learn knife combat to use at the church picnic , It aint meant to be nice , respectfully ,Fishmonger ps , people are going to know you are not an expert on the subject when you cant spell their name SAYOC is the correct spelling

 

[Sun Helmet]

3)All blade all the time means that a less agressive response is almost impossible.Thus all responses are fatal,unless the style has some empty handed responses. But of what I have seen & read not many empty handed tecniques are present. Bladed at all times...

Hi Cobun,

"All Blade All the Time" refers to the mindset that a Sayoc Kali student becomes aware of through training.

Some details:

1. That at any point of an attack, one must understand that a blade can be deployed and used by your ATTACKER, your attacker's friends, as well as yourself...etc.

2. It also means to treat ALL attacks as if the bad guy is carrying a blade, this way you will react with correct body mechanics even if you are empty handed. Why? Because people do not SEE the knife until they are already stabbed, often multiple times. They usually FEEL the after effects of the wounds.

3. Another point is that it makes students aware to 'see' or be aware of knives on other people in everyday situations. This type of awareness has saved many Sayoc practitioners trouble because it has allowed them to recognize and define threats way before it happens. Thus, they can avoid or place themselves in situations where they are not the primary target. or they can be the first to engage the person (sometimes without the would be attacker even noticing) if they are in a position to harm their loved ones.

It isn't a duel but a life and death struggle to survive.

There's other details which explains more of the " All Blade, All the Time" mindset, but the few above should suffice that there's more than meets the eye.

Attention to detail is a VERY important quality to have, Cobun. For example, as Fishmonger pointed out - you have come to a public forum and STARTED a negative thread on SayoC Kali. You obviously have read articles, ads, posts and hopefully were aware enough to visit the SayoC site... yet you could not spell the name. Further reading of your posts does reveal you are missing HUGE pieces of the puzzle. Not many readers will give you much credit if you're off from the outset.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[guromkb]

Kamusta Ka
I am in complete agreement with Tuhon Rafael. I have never studied Sayoc Kali I am a product of the Pekititirsia and Melayu Silat world, but i hold Sayoc in very high esteem. I have met a few Sayoc men in my travels and i have never once come away with an opinion that Sayoc is a purely combat art. Guro Harley elmore was perhaps one of the nicest folks I ever met and he seems to be a very peacful man. Now with that being said i know the Sayoc fellas can turn it up if need be as can any practtioner if he has the MANA and the heart to keep himself his family his clan alive.

I started the Kali-Rongan system here in Texas this year after 23 years of training..and so far I have been labeled everything from a war monger to a biker due to my appearance and teaching methodologies (Tattoo's and practical combatives). So you see to say something like i warn officers about systems like sayoc does Sayoc folks a huge injustice and in a way you diservice all true Filipino practioners.
I also teach my folks that in a life and death situation one must assume the perp is armed, and that he is bigger, better , and more highly skilled than yourself..once you manifest this into your clan they will always fight up to and in some cases past there potential as warriors, this is very important for survival. Okay enough ranting take care all Salamat
Guro Michael B
Kali-Rongan ng Buhay
SATX

 

[Sun Helmet]

As I also train police officers in the fine arts, I warn them about styles such as Sayok.I t just scares me that soo many people know this very effective art.

I hope your misguided 'warning' does not get any of our fine police officers killed. If they studied Sayoc Tactical and knew what Sayoc had to offer, they would understand the practicality and methods of Sayoc as sound.

They would also realize that the majority of the Sayoc full Instructors and many of their students are/were LEOs.

If morality is of importance to you, it would be well advised to seek out the truth first before spreading ill informed 'well intended' critiques on the internet. You are not the first nor the last to realize that criminals already know how to kill you, that they already carry multiple weapons. They don't need Sayoc Kali to teach them. All they need is a victim who has no idea how to be aware of blades and their lethal use.

If Sayoc Kali scares you... then that's not our problem.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

 

[Samuel]

I've had nothing but Good/Positive experiences meeting and training with people (instructors and students) from/with Sayoc - both personally and professionally (as an LEO). :thumbup:

Speaking of which, Tuhon Raf, when are you and Tuhon Tom coming back to town?

 

[Sun Helmet]

Hi Samuel,

I saw Tuhon Tom two weeks ago in Fort Bragg, he might be in the LA area in a few weeks. I might be there pretty soon as well if the film project I was working on gets going.

--Rafael--

 

[Sun Helmet]

Kamusta Ka
I am in complete agreement with Tuhon Rafael. I have never studied Sayoc Kali I am a product of the Pekititirsia and Melayu Silat world, but i hold Sayoc in very high esteem.
Guro Michael B

Hello,

Hope to meet you someday! I saw and gave my respects to GT Gaje in Maryland around April. He was there with Manong Dan Inosanto.

I definitely agree with you on Guro Harley and all the fine folks from the Texas tribe.

--Rafael--

 

[Ghost Kobun]

Hi All, Hi Kobun , In my opinion Kobun you have answered your own question here , you state you are not an expert on Sayoc Kali yet offer warnings about systems like them ? You also state that sayoc kali is meant for war period ! how do you know that ? Have a look at what they teach and you will see they offer empty hand work as well as blade such as "finger touch method " as for how many blades to carry , thats up to the individual , i am not a sayoc kali student and i carry at least 2 knives , does that make me odd? as a kali practioner your blade methods should cross over to empty hand which is what you stated , which is where the non lethal stuff comes into play , and keep in mind you can only use 2 blades at a time but what if you use them as projectiles ?, the rest are insurance , as i understand the rigs the sayoc guys wear are training aids not carry rigs , kobun i would suggest you go over to the sayoc public forum and read the stickies before you post stuff like this , the sayocs are good people who are the target of a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding , better not to add fuel to the fire , and lets not forget one very important fact , we dont learn knife combat to use at the church picnic , It aint meant to be nice , respectfully ,Fishmonger ps , people are going to know you are not an expert on the subject when you cant spell their name SAYOC is the correct spelling

NOT adding fuel to the fire...
As I said I truely respect the art. Thus asking some simple questions without being oppiniated. I never said I was a student of Sayoc, thus my spelling was off, my appoligies.

Thank you for your answer, as I did not knowf the empty hand nature of their training. I guess it's Blade all the time... except when ...

Kobun

 

[Ghost Kobun]

It still amazes me how people can interpret a non agressive thread. First I appoligies, my first lauguage is NOT English.

As I said, I respect this art form, & truely thaught that with all of the information about Sayoc, that I concluded it was warfare oriented.

Marketing 101: When one uses words such as Shock tribal weapons, I am not incline to think Tai Chi push hands. When one enteres the world of Hollywood with a vengence, & captures the worlds attention with a movie named the HUNTED. I believe that most people will think this too be violent.

As this is a forum, I asked the question, & thank you for educating me on the topic. The mindset taught by your style is truely an effective way to train.

As for my comment regarding the police, the warning is just, as most officers in Canada have NO information about unique styles of fighting. Sayoc being so effective gives me the moral right to shed a light on the topic. It does not mean that I think every Sayoc student is a criminal, yet many of the comments directed towards me, indicate that you are being targeted & feel that is what I meant.

Puzzled!!


What a police officer does with this information, I hope is too research the style, & take it from there. As for your comments about my posts,I will reread them & try harder at my english. Perhaps then you will understand, that I am the puzzle.

Discrimination is a common occurance. Mine is that I can not expressmyself inEnglish, & instead of being polite, You have called me out to the lowest.

Gees, & you guys keep saying your so nice--the Filipino's are always nice.


Next time just ask me to be a bit clearer, and I will try me best.

Kobun

En Francais, les pied sont vite.

 

[saint o'killers]

i think the original question was "how much is too much knives?"

IMHO, i think one is enough. two at the most if you play doble daga. anything more is overkill...if my mentality is the old P.I. way. then 7 is not enough. but here in the U.S. one is good. especially if your'e just the regular Joe Civilian. if i'm thinking projectile use then i'd carry a hand gun. a knife is not the best projectile weapon because miss or not it can be used against you also.

i don't think Kobun meant any offense at all. but i do understand that maybe next time just don't mention or drop any names as an example. it's a very bad idea, and people can get sensitive at times. written or typed words does not convey intonations of voices or true feelings effectively, especially in a public forum such as this one.

mabuhay kaibigan!

 

[Ghost Kobun]

That's exectaly right. The question was too many knives. I will take your advice & not use any names.

Kobun

 

[Longshot]

I started training in the Martial Arts in 1980 but thanks to the "Fine Arts" or what I call "Martial Sports" that are prevalent, I found that I was ill equiped to deal with an actual confrontation.

The "core" purpose of Martial Arts training is to prepare yourself for the unstructured event of conflict, so that you can overcome or eliminate the danger or the threat. That may be by avoiding it on one end of the spectrum, or by lethal force on the other end.

Ghost Kobun
3)All blade all the time means that a less agressive response is almost impossible.Thus all responses are fatal,unless the style has some empty handed responses. But of what I have seen & read not many empty handed tecniques are present. Bladed at all times...

Again, I am NOT an expert on the SAYOK topic,and am wondering if the style from blade is interchangable to the empty hand. Like most Kali concepts.

As student of Kali I love the interchangable nature of movements,as the blade/stick movement can be change into non lethal alternatives.

One of the first things that occured when I witnessed Sayoc Kali and Sayoc Tactical was the realization that the Kali I knew contained these principles already... beneath the surface. Therefore as a Kali practicioner all of my previous training would be enhanced by the Sayoc Training Methodology. Much like the properly applied principles of Jeet Kune Do, which will enhance any art you currently practice.

You shouldn't have to wonder if Sayoc has empty handed applications as a "Student of Kali" because Kali is based on principles which can be applied to any or no weapons... you simply adjust the technique to the properties of the weapon (Length, Blunt or Edged/Pointed, Flexible... Projectile... etc) and the existing conditions.

If a Martial Art isn't meant for warfare then it's merely excercise or art. I am often asked "what martial art should I take?", I say, " Why do you want to learn Martial Arts?". If they state: Physical Fitness, Discipline, Competition, Spiritual Growth... then I say join a gym, join the military, take yoga, go to church, whatever... You can gain all of these things in a actual Martial Art... but if at the end of your training it's no good for warfare... why did you bother? Recognize and respect that what your training for IS warfare and lives were the cost of the knowledge and maybe you can really appreciate all the other tertiary benefits that come with the training.

I REALLY hope that the individuals that you train are prepared for actual conflict... because guess what... the battle has come to our soil and YOU DO live in a place where the need is existant. And we in the military are not the first responders domestically to terrorism, our brothers, the Law Enforcement Officers you say your training are! And the our enemies targets are our children, wives, daughters, innocent bystanders... So what kind of "Self Defense" training should we make available to the Good guys?

 

[rayfloro]

Greetings All,

I can only say from experience that to even START to understand Sayoc, one has to do it first hand...........literature, videos, word of mouth and assumption will get you no where close to what they are all about.

So attend their seminars or their Samma Samma gatherings.

Having said that.........this issue with their "multiple knives" and belt rigs, are so totally misunderstood.

Of course one doesn't go around carrying dozens of knives when out on the street...........but why do most of you think of "knives".

If you look at their belt rigs, you will see "training" knives strategically and SPECIFICALLY placed on certain parts of the rigs........

This "knife" placement......easily translates to improvised weapons.

For example.....on a normal day out, I DO NOT carry a knife (as it is illegal in my state)......BUT.....on my back pocket I have a wallet.....on my belt, I have a mobile phone, in my front pockets I have loose change......and at times I will carry a blackjack.

Although I don't have the Sayoc belt rig.....the position of these "everyday" items are positioned like the training knives on the Sayoc belt rig.

So if I need to throw distractions.....I can draw my wallet, coins etc to throw (which is one of the training methods the Sayoc guys perform with their rigs)....

I can draw my mobile phone to use as a makeshift fist load......and I can draw my blackjack for instant use.

What I wear changes where I place these "improvised" weapons.....so as far as the Sayoc belt rig is concerned........it represents different carry modes of weapons......and different ways to gain access to them

From a military standpoint.....I have taught the military enough to know that depending on the mission, what is carried and how their webbing in configurated varies from mission to mission......so carrying your knife may vary on the webbing......hence you need to train to draw the knife from different positions etc

Also, don't see the knives as knives.........they can represent anything you are carrying. Or even not carrying

Too many people take things literally.....think outside the nine dots.

Raymond Floro

www.florofighting.com

 

[Ghost Kobun]

Thank you for actually answering my questions.

You see as a student of Kali, I still have much too learn, thus the reasons for asking. It really follows the path of reality, some thing I always strive for in my training.

The idea of interchanging the placement of knives & them becomeing day to day items is truely the answer I was looking for.

It is similar when in Karate we train with the BO,orwith Sai's. One always assumes that the Karate Ka will bring those actual weapons on the street.

It is the concept that we bring to the battle.

As for war--I know it is here at our door step--yet for some cases--I still beleive in having non-lethal responses.

Perhaps--I am just as nice as the Filipino

 

[Ghost Kobun]

Greetings All,

I can only say from experience that to even START to understand Sayoc, one has to do it first hand...........literature, videos, word of mouth and assumption will get you no where close to what they are all about.

So attend their seminars or their Samma Samma gatherings.

Having said that.........this issue with their "multiple knives" and belt rigs, are so totally misunderstood.

Of course one doesn't go around carrying dozens of knives when out on the street...........but why do most of you think of "knives".

If you look at their belt rigs, you will see "training" knives strategically and SPECIFICALLY placed on certain parts of the rigs........

This "knife" placement......easily translates to improvised weapons.

For example.....on a normal day out, I DO NOT carry a knife (as it is illegal in my state)......BUT.....on my back pocket I have a wallet.....on my belt, I have a mobile phone, in my front pockets I have loose change......and at times I will carry a blackjack.

Although I don't have the Sayoc belt rig.....the position of these "everyday" items are positioned like the training knives on the Sayoc belt rig.

So if I need to throw distractions.....I can draw my wallet, coins etc to throw (which is one of the training methods the Sayoc guys perform with their rigs)....

I can draw my mobile phone to use as a makeshift fist load......and I can draw my blackjack for instant use.

What I wear changes where I place these "improvised" weapons.....so as far as the Sayoc belt rig is concerned........it represents different carry modes of weapons......and different ways to gain access to them

From a military standpoint.....I have taught the military enough to know that depending on the mission, what is carried and how their webbing in configurated varies from mission to mission......so carrying your knife may vary on the webbing......hence you need to train to draw the knife from different positions etc

Also, don't see the knives as knives.........they can represent anything you are carrying. Or even not carrying

Too many people take things literally.....think outside the nine dots.

Raymond Floro

www.florofighting.com

Just checked out your site: WOW

 

[Sun Helmet]

It still amazes me how people can interpret a non agressive thread. First I appoligies, my first lauguage is NOT English.

Why are you amazed how people interpret your initial post?
It wasn't due to a second language.
It was because you misinformed people about Sayoc Kali and they merely pointed out the true facts.

As I said, I respect this art form, & truely thaught that with all of the information about Sayoc, that I concluded it was warfare oriented.

If you really want to know about Sayoc Kali the best way to do so is to ask Sayoc Kali reps at our public forums.

It does not mean that I think every Sayoc student is a criminal, yet many of the comments directed towards me, indicate that you are being targeted & feel that is what I meant.

Puzzled!!

Basically, you made a lot of false assumptions and ran with them.

Discrimination is a common occurance. Mine is that I can not expressmyself inEnglish, & instead of being polite, You have called me out to the lowest.

There's millions of people who do not speak english fluently, but they understand what they intended to write. I visited the homepage you listed and you write fine.

Next time just ask me to be a bit clearer, and I will try me best.

'Filipino' or 'Pilipino' without the 'LL'
You are using the moniker of 'Ghost Soldier' (Ghost Kobun), and the country of which the book is based at uses ONE 'L' and 'pp'.
'Philippines'

--Rafael--

 

[Sun Helmet]

Ray Floro's seminars are recommended to all our Sayoc students as well.

--Rafael--

 

[saint o'killers]

i think Kobun already said it best when he stated..."First I appoligies..."