too much beeswax in leather?

G

Grimalkin

Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
162
hey all, long time lurker, first time poster.

I made a leather sheath for my Ontario 18" Machete, it came out great after overcoming a few fairly significant issues I made during construction (which I'll delve into on another thread when I post my pics).

I have a problem with oversaturation of my leather. I made a 50/50 beeswax neatsfoot mix, and applied too many layers thankfully to the dangler attachment to my belt, and not the sheath itself. But now the leather strap is just soft, and won't harden at all (my sheath is rather hard after multiple applications, so not sure whats going on).

Its been drying for a day, still no change, any way to get this piece of leather hard? Or remove the oil and wax? I tried heating up and trying to soak up with a cotton cloth, nothing..

thanks,
 
Based on your post I'd say you may not have too much beeswax, but you darn sure have too much neatsfoot oil. Neatsfoot should be applied VERY sparingly and then STOP. A very light coat of oil will continue to penetrate the leather for days while it is "leveling out". I can't comment on the beeswax, because I've never seen the need for it personally.

The short fix for you is to make a new dangler and not repeat the error. The long fix is to bury it in diatomaceous earth for a month or so and "some" of the oil will leach out into the powdery earth. This was told and demonstrated to me by an OLD saddlemaker.

Paul
 
I have not used oil to treat my leather yet, but I have been using beeswax leather conditioner and pure beeswax to protect the leather, and both of those make leather really quite hard.

With the conditioner I'd put a thin layer on and then using hairdryer I'd force it into the leather, usually do it twice, and it creates nice hard surface.

With the wax alone, I've melted it and dunked the sheath in to saturate... That can make the leather really hard and if you overdo it will be 'sweating' wax...:o
 
Thanks for the insight guys, these types of mistakes only happen once, that's for sure! I did 3 coats of the beeswax neetsfoot mix on the sheath (outside only)/and I'm glad I stopped there as the leather looks and feels good to me.

The problem with the dangler strap is that I had access to the inside, so after 3 coats on outside and 2 on inside it was toast. I did some further research on oil and had an idea I'm trying out. I had some spare crystal kitty litter I've used for keeping my cigar humidor regulated (don't ask)

So I've crushed some up into a fairly good powder, heated up the leather strap, and surrounded it with the kitty litter. Kitty litter really absorbs motor oil so we'll see how it goes. I'll report back tomorrow.
 
Yep...it's the oil that is your problem.

Historically, to harden leather [as into armor] the term is "cuir bouilli" or "boiled leather."

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm

Later in the middle ages, someone experimented with wax......

[video=youtube;GiNUZwug5t0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiNUZwug5t0[/video]

The dangler loop should be reasonably rigid and the connector loop provides the "flex" or "pivot"...but it should not be "hardened" beause there's not going to be any flex when putting it on or taking it off [the belt]. The video would do well for the sheath itself but not the dangler.

I would simply rub some raw beeswax onto the leather dangler and use a heat gun to impregnate it into the leather and let it go.

for your "mix" though...unless you absolutely need that ratio of wax-to-oil, I'd fix that by changing it from a 1:1 ratio to a 4 or 5:1 ratio, wax to oil....by melting more wax into the [already melted] mix and stirring it in.
 
Couple of thoughts.

If the oil isn't removed/drawn out sufficiently I'd bin it. The straps are easy to make, at least the style I make. Pain I know, but you probably won't be happy with it unless you make the best of your ability.

For the hardware between the strap and loop I've tried several different types. A rectangular ring is best for when you have used thin or soft leather. I don't care for "dee's" or rings unless the customer specs it. The best I've used is fully removable Prada style hardware. They are a few bucks each, but work very well. It's a square or rectangle and has a threaded pin that can be removed. This means you can remove it from both the loop and strap. Using a regular dee you can remove the strap, but the ring remains on the loop. Not a big deal, but the handbag hardware is superior in every way that I can see.

Edit- these are what I use (thanks for the tip Jason).

g12z4Og.jpg


Lastly, if you want an emulsion for your wax use a little coconut oil. Get it right and it'll be hard/solid at normal temps, but will melt a little under friction from rubbing it into the leather. It's well worth trying and makes a fantastic water repealing finish. Especially nice if you prefer a more matte finish than Tan-Kote or acrylic finishes provide.
 
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To follow up with my kitty litter idea, ya it didn't work in the slightest, so chalk that up as a fail.

@Druid, I might have to pick up some more wax to increase the ratio as you suggested. Another problem I'm having is that the wax neatsfoot mixture is rock hard, I have read I can add some paraffin wax to soften it up, is this true? Obviously the 1:1 ratio of oil to wax was wrong info, so I am going to be re-examining the truthfullness of google :)

I really liked the colour I got from this ratio though, a nice medium dark leather look which took 3 coats of the current ratio.

@Omega, I was considering doing D's like those, but I wanted to be able to swivel the sheath forward to take out the machete with more ease, those type wouldn't work well for me for this long blade for the effect I was going for but I might keep an eye on those for the future, I like the design!
 
Where do you find those square bag rings? I've been looking for some for another project. Randy
 
Grimalkin said:
To follow up with my kitty litter idea, ya it didn't work in the slightest, so chalk that up as a fail.

Well that........sucks...

@Druid, I might have to pick up some more wax to increase the ratio as you suggested. Another problem I'm having is that the wax neatsfoot mixture is rock hard, I have read I can add some paraffin wax to soften it up, is this true? Obviously the 1:1 ratio of oil to wax was wrong info, so I am going to be re-examining the truthfullness of google :)

I'm not sure about the paraffin but in my experience, paraffin is a "harder" wax than beeswax. When I learned how to can foods 3 decades ago with my mother, we used to seal jams and jellies in their jars with paraffin. I'd think it would worsen the 'hardness' of your mixture.

If your mixture is already 'rock hard' with a 1:1 ratio, adding more wax will not make it soften.....but it will drop the oil ratio to wax, giving you less of a "flex" issue when applied to the leather.

I have a recipe of waterproofing agent that's beeswax, turpentine and linseed oil. When the new mix is finally "set," it's a "thick paste-to-not quite candle hardness" consistency. I either remelt it and work it in with a brush or sponge or I spread it on with a putty knife/similar. Either way, I use a heat gun on low to force/impregnate the leather with it. The reason I mention this is I don't think the 'consistency of raw mix' is what matters, but the outcome from the application being more important. The wax waterproofs leather on it's own, as I have used only beeswax on sheaths and it works perfectly. These sheaths were rock solid hard, almost sounding like tapping a penny on a 1"x board. Neatsfoot oil is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative agent for leather and adding it to wax is kind of countering the 'hardening effect' of the wax. The oil makes leather soft and pliable....completely negating what you are trying to accomplish with the wax [in a 1:1 ratio]
That's my take on the matter though....

I really liked the colour I got from this ratio though, a nice medium dark leather look which took 3 coats of the current ratio.

In all fairness, you can accomplish the same goal with pure beeswax. I know I have. I once had a smaller piece of an oak shoulder I made a sheath from. The natural color of the leather was such a light tan, it almost looked like a light shade of pink. After soaking the sheath parts in pure beeswax [I did this prior to stitching/assembly], it was almost chestnut brown. Now I submerged these pieces in melted wax, pulled them out and let them "set." When done, I slightly buffed them, then sewed them and finished the buffing process.

In retrospect, the wax was not "pure" [read "not pure" as "not filtered"] and happened to be darker than normal.

@Omega, I was considering doing D's like those, but I wanted to be able to swivel the sheath forward to take out the machete with more ease, those type wouldn't work well for me for this long blade for the effect I was going for but I might keep an eye on those for the future, I like the design!
Click to expand...


The best thing you can do is to make "trial [and error] pieces" and test out things before taking it to project. That way you already know what is [probably] going to happen before you use it on a finished project. Test piece gets ruined? no big deal. A sheath that took you 7 hrs to stamp, mold and build might just leave you in tears.
 
The best price I've found, I believe, is from a seller on etsy. Hardware Elf is kinda expensive, but Tal gets em there.

Druid, those are some great prices, but they are 3/4". I use 1" for regular straps, have used up to 2", I think, for big heavy sheaths
 
Omega Leather Works said:
Druid, those are some great prices, but they are 3/4". I use 1" for regular straps, have used up to 2", I think, for big heavy sheaths
Click to expand...

Well, I myself never used them and I knew they were only 3/4" but I did a quick bout with my google-fu to help the young man out.

Also Omega, here's a potential idea for you......heh....heh....heh....

Two of those 3/4" side by side on a "double dangler mount." I whipped this up in paint to give you an idea [or some variation] of what I mean...


SHEATH_zpsjbpnvov8.png
[/URL][/IMG]
 
@druid

I obviously have a lot to learn about leather. In any case, I might dilute the mixture more with more beeswax, I have no issues getting the solid wax combo into the leather at all, and I live in the Pacific Northwest, so its always raining and if for some reason I have my sheaths out in the rain I want them water proof thanks for the tips. I thought the neatsfoot wax combo would be good for the leather and I am also not trying to attain rock hard leather because I need to squeeze the mouth just to get my machete out without cutting the welt as it is.

Good to know I can attain that darker colour with just beezwax, that's more incentive to just dilute it further.
 
Grimalkin said:
@druid

I obviously have a lot to learn about leather.

you and me both. I have been doing this [off and on] for almost 30 years and I'm STILL learning about it. making leather projects is an ongoing learning experience for me and many others. Don't sweat it...we don't :)

In any case, I might dilute the mixture more with more beeswax, I have no issues getting the solid wax combo into the leather at all, and I live in the Pacific Northwest, so its always raining and if for some reason I have my sheaths out in the rain I want them water proof thanks for the tips. I thought the neatsfoot wax combo would be good for the leather and I am also not trying to attain rock hard leather because I need to squeeze the mouth just to get my machete out without cutting the welt as it is.

Good to know I can attain that darker colour with just beezwax, that's more incentive to just dilute it further.
Click to expand...

Try this for your next waterproofing agent. It's effin awesome :D .....

Supplies list:

* large metal coffee can or clean/new paint can from Lowes
* Sharpie marker
* Clean paint stirer
* pan larger than the can with water [to make a temporary double boiler]
* 1 lb purified beeswax
* 8 oz Boiled linseed Oil
* 8 oz turpentine

* Melt the wax in the coffee/paint can on a LOW heat
* Remove from heat and stir until it begins to solidify
* add the BLO and Turpentine
* Set aside and let the mix set up [usually overnight]
* Keep lid on when not in use.

Works on leather, canvas/cloth, wood and metal.

Take a putty knife, sponge or latex-gloved hands and spread the mixture onto the object you need waterproofed. Coat it well, coat it evenly and coat it a little more than "sparingly."

Use a heat gun on low and apply 'sweeping' heat to the object being waterproofed. The object [that's not metal or painted wood] will absorb the mix. **poof** yer done.

Wood [axe & knife handles, etc.] can be done twice.

Use the Sharpie to write the ingredients and instructions for use onto the can of mixture.

This mix NEVER goes bad when you keep the lid on it. I have stuff that lasted 20 years [dad made it] and works like I just made it.

If you want to use all the liquids you bought [one quart cans each of BLO and Turpentine], simply add 4 lbs of beeswax and follow the above instructions to make it.

This mix can be portioned off to smaller cans and carried in the field. Useful on backpacks, canvas tents/awnings, wooden axe & tool handles, leather sheaths, carbon steel blades [clean them completely before using on consumables though]..... you name it [but you need heat for the absorption process in fabrics/wood/leather].

EDIT: corrected a transposed / bad sequence in production :P
 
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Turpentine and open flame?
Must be an outdoor activity…

Maybe a yard sale electric frying pan would be better?
 
Ebbtide said:
Turpentine and open flame?
Must be an outdoor activity…

Maybe a yard sale electric frying pan would be better?
Click to expand...
That's a good point. Turpentine has a low flash point and the vapor is heavier than air, meaning it can settle down by the ignition source and flash back to the pan/pot. It's also not good to handle the stuff without proper ppe (not sure what that might include, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to use gloves and respirator).
 
Ebbtide said:
Turpentine and open flame?
Must be an outdoor activity…

Maybe a yard sale electric frying pan would be better?
Click to expand...

uh....no....lol.

Melt the wax and remove from heat. add BLO and turp.........there's no more flame when you turned it off.....
 
is linseed oil okay for leather? I had thought about it when all this started..I feel committed with the neatsfoot, I am on a budget so I only buy what I need. I WILL be applying pure beeswax to my wood handles for water proofing, not sure if it needs oil in there or not, from what I have read pure beeswax absorbed into wood is more than adequate to protect it from the elements, am I wrong in this thinking?

On another note, I have thought about how I am going to proceed with this current mix I made. I think i'll stick with the 1:1 and only apply 1 coat for an initial absorbtion. And it will be a thinner coat, not a liberal coat. Then after that I'll do pure beeswax into the leather for another 2 coats. I am hoping that the neatsfoot will be enough to keep the leather from being rock hard.

I might test this on a small piece first. Thanks again for all the help guys, I'll be posting pics soon of my first sheath.
 
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