Too Thin or Wire Edge?

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KennyB

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Jan 19, 2010
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I reprofiled my Izula to 30* inclusive today. The burr was really stubborn to get off but I'm pretty sure that I got it off, used pretty much every "detection" trick I know and even went so far as to cut into a nice piece of wood. It would still pop wrist hairs right off and split 'em, which is pretty much where I want to be off a 1000 grit water-stone.

The thing is though that after only a few pieces of paper and shaving a few patches of arm hair, I tried a little leg hair and noticed it wouldn't go for it, so I tried my arm hair and same thing. Then I noticed a little glint on the blade under some heavy light, but we're talking really tiny.

You think I left a wire edge on there or it's just too thin? I don't really know how fast 30* inclusive should dull on an Izula but given it's 1095 I'm not really sure that paper and hair wouldn't do that to it if it was just too thin and I've heard before that 30* inclusive might be a little too ambitious for 1095.
 
Not too thin, 1095 will take and hold a good edge at 30 degrees. If you see a glint, that's a burr. Cutting into wood will only get rid of the most busted up of burrs/wire edges, sounds like you have to get back to it on the stone. Very common in my experience to have really stubborn burrs following a reprofile. Just approach it like it's dull and redo the edge at your new angle - probably have a bunch of dud metal at the apex that's gonna have to be ground off. Might want to flip sides a bit more often as well. Coming off of a 1000 grit waterstone (what brand?), you shouldn't have much of a burr unless you're doing a lot of edge-trailing. What are you using for a strop? I find if I try to use finer grades of compound coming off of relatively coarse stones (1000grit waterstone=5-600 grit CAMI) it possible to polish the burr and not actually remove it. Getting good results with black compound coming off of my 1000-1200 grit waterstones. Once the edge is nice and tidy you can move to a white or green compound with much better results.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Not too thin, 1095 will take and hold a good edge at 30 degrees. If you see a glint, that's a burr. Cutting into wood will only get rid of the most busted up of burrs/wire edges, sounds like you have to get back to it on the stone. Very common in my experience to have really stubborn burrs following a reprofile. Just approach it like it's dull and redo the edge at your new angle - probably have a bunch of dud metal at the apex that's gonna have to be ground off. Might want to flip sides a bit more often as well. Coming off of a 1000 grit waterstone (what brand?), you shouldn't have much of a burr unless you're doing a lot of edge-trailing. What are you using for a strop? I find if I try to use finer grades of compound coming off of relatively coarse stones (1000grit waterstone=5-600 grit CAMI) it possible to polish the burr and not actually remove it. Getting good results with black compound coming off of my 1000-1200 grit waterstones. Once the edge is nice and tidy you can move to a white or green compound with much better results.
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I use a Norton 220/1000... I do a lot of trailing strokes when I'm establishing a burr, but once I've got it raised up on both sides I switch to edge-pushing to finish it off. I did have to do a looot of edge-trailing, bevel-establishing on this job though so maybe that just produced a really long burr.

Also, does it make a difference that I know this glint wasn't there when I took it off the stone? It happened while I was cutting paper and shaving hair, that much I'm 100% positive of. I used a 30x loupe to examine the edge when it came off the stone and it looked crisp and without defect, but the glint I could see with my naked eye, so I'm sure I would have noticed it under the loupe if it was there before-hand.

I don't know how to explain the difficulty of the burr either... It's almost as if it's just hard to get the actual edge, but I'm not really sure if that's because I'm not holding steady enough or because there's just more metal to remove than I'm accustomed too--my bevel faces usually never come close to being this wide.

Anyway, I have a MDF strop loaded with CrO, but I've stopped using it since I tend to roll my apex a little with all the work I have to do on it jumping from a 1000 grit stone. Still I've found it effective for taking those burrs off in the past, but I'm not certain it helped in this particular situation, if anything maybe just succeeded in pushing the burr back out straight. It went right back to shaving, and I even made sure to check that for both sides to make sure it wasn't a burr doing the shaving. That's what really makes me think it's a wire I've only managed to stand out straight.

Oh well, I think I'll take your advice and just put it back to the benchstone, with how close it is it probably won't be more than ten minutes more... I hope, two day project so far. Did I mention I had to thin this down from 60* inclusive? Yeah, I had a little mistake with my jig... Obviously I wasn't pleased with that error, seeing as I decided to free-hand it back.
 
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I have taken ESEE 1095 down quite a bit lower than 30 and the edge held up well during and after wood processing. I do not think the steel or the angle is the likely culprit.

Try a 40 degree micro bevel...a few strokes should rectify any wire/burr problems you have.
 
KennyB said:
Also, does it make a difference that I know this glint wasn't there when I took it off the stone? It happened while I was cutting paper and shaving hair, that much I'm 100% positive of. I used a 30x loupe to examine the edge when it came off the stone and it looked crisp and without defect, but the glint I could see with my naked eye, so I'm sure I would have noticed it under the loupe if it was there before-hand.
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Not long back I convexed a knife and ground it down progressively all the way to .3 micron lapping film and stropped on CrO. Got on a kick where I became suspicious of my edge trailing edges coming off the sandpaper, and to test it I scraped the edge a few times very lightly across a hardwood dowel at 90 degrees (this is kind of a nasty test, but in reality a clean edge at any but a very extreme bevel angle should be able to pass it). A wire edge rolled up along 2" of the edge and I had to start over almost from the beginning. This edge was examined at 640x and it appeared perfect. Attribute the issue to left-over dud metal from the convex conversion and not using enough pressure when sharpening up through the stages (yes, IMHO its possible to use to little pressure when sharpening depending on metal and type of grinding media). This allowed the weak metal to hang tight and simply be sculpted rather than ground off. In your case I still think its just a bunch of beat-up steel left over from the bevel change and not removed well with the edge trailing strokes.




KennyB said:
Anyway, I have a MDF strop loaded with CrO, but I've stopped using it since I tend to roll my apex a little with all the work I have to do on it jumping from a 1000 grit stone. Still I've found it effective for taking those burrs off in the past, but I'm not certain it helped in this particular situation, if anything maybe just succeeded in pushing the burr back out straight. It went right back to shaving, and I even made sure to check that for both sides to make sure it wasn't a burr doing the shaving. That's what really makes me think it's a wire I've only managed to stand out straight.
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I highly recommend using leather and some coarser compound coming off the 1000 grit waterstone. The MDF with CrO is a better fit for an 8000 grit waterstone. That said, whatever works keep doing it - but don't be afraid to experiment with different strop materials and grit values. You might be surprised by what you find.
 
unit said:
Try a 40 degree micro bevel...a few strokes should rectify any wire/burr problems you have.
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I always fall back on using a med/fine ceramic hone (Spyderco grey/white) to do this, for more 'stubborn' burrs & wire edges. Essentially doing as unit has suggested (micro bevel), edge-leading at a slightly elevated angle. Very, very light passes. Scrubs the burrs off quite well. Then strop again.
 
Another method I have used for burr removal (particularly on a knife I intend to use quite hard) is as follows:

When I *think* I am done putting an edge on, I have a piece of very dense and very hard red oak that I will slice. I do not actually slice it, but I make a fair effort at slicing it (perhaps a pound or two of force on the handle as I pull the blade across the surface). Usually a single draw "cut" across the grain is sufficient for this procedure. If the edge is "about as sharp" as it was prior to the oak, I know I have a good edge.

Obviously, everything is relative to the intended use for the knife, but I find a good edge will still easily and cleanly shave arm hair after this procedure. If the edge won't, it was quite possibly a wire edge anyway...better to discover it here than in the woods;)

I have seen guys do this with hard felt also. Perhaps for an office knife, a less rigorous substrate (like felt) would be appropriate, but something like an Izula...I think it ought to stand up to some punishment and hold a nice edge (the ones I sharpen do anyway).
 
For my gold standard of deburred, clean, certified non-wire edge, I do the following - In my gear bag I keep a 3/4" x 7" dowel, hardwood, probably maple. As a routine part of sharpening I draw my edge across it as I go, a few light passes here and there up and down the length when changing sides, grinds, stopping to check for burrs. When I think I'm all done I scrape the edge along the dowel at a 90 degree angle, bumping over all the accumulated nicks. Three or four light passes, a little less pressure than I use when stropping is all it takes. If it can still pushcut paper as well as it could before this procedure, and I can't see a burr or wire edge fold into the light, then there isn't one to see and that edge will last a long time. IME if there's any loose metal on the apex, it'll come back to haunt me fairly soon, possibly the very next time I strop. I used to do this on the edge of my workbench, but switched to the dowel as my bench got chewed up.
 
My strop block is red oak. It's got a bunch of little notches in the edges (corners) on the bottom side, where I've used it for cleaning up light burrs. Same manner as described by unit & HH, a draw cut at relatively light pressure (sometimes heavier if needed) across the grain. That takes care of 'em, most of the time. It's actually quite impressive to see an edge that was previously snagging on phone book paper, just ZIP through on the next pass, after the draw-cut across the oak. That's when you can see, with absolute certainty, the effect the burrs have on cutting, and the immediate improvement seen when they get cleaned up. There was a time when I would've been skeptical if someone had told me an edge could be noticeably IMPROVED in this manner.
 
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Does the type of wood matter much? I only have douglas fur in the garage, and then there's this wood my caliper's case is made out of... No idea what it is

Anyway, I did everything over again and after all was said and done saw another glint of light after doing some basic sharpness-tests. So I sliced into the caliper case with some pretty decent pressure and there wasn't any trace of the glint left. I had to strop a little bit after that but it's back to as sharp as I normally like, and I'm not seeing anymore glints after shaving and cutting up phone book paper.

So I think I got the burr off... I don't know, I'm thinking about putting a small micro-bevel on anyway because these bevels just aren't very flat and I noticed with the marker-trick today that it takes a couple of strokes for me to actually hit the part of the edge I want... So I think a micro-bevel might just be easier to manage overall, my only concern about it is whether it will go in easy and whether its burr will be just as stubborn to work off.
 
Type of wood doesn't necessarily matter. A lot of us like to use hardwood (such as oak), but the basic idea is just about using something stiff/hard enough to grab the burr and break it off. A lot depends on how big the burr is, how hard/tough/brittle/ductile the steel might be, etc. Sometimes burrs can be broken off in stiff leather or cardboard. I've noticed improvement, occasionally, by cutting into stacked paper (like a catalog or phone book).

I wouldn't worry too much about creating a new burr on a micro bevel. A micro bevel is normally done in just a few edge-leading strokes, using VERY LIGHT PRESSURE (no more than the weight of the blade). Don't have to put much 'grunt' into it, because it's removing a very tiny bit of steel at the very edge, at an elevated angle. When done light & a bit steeper (wider angle) than the original bevel, there's not much opportunity for new burrs to form.
 
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Obsessed with Edges said:
Type of wood doesn't necessarily matter. A lot of us like to use hardwood (such as oak), but the basic idea is just about using something stiff/hard enough to grab the burr and break it off. A lot depends on how big the burr is, how hard/tough/brittle/ductile the steel might be, etc. Sometimes burrs can be broken off in stiff leather or cardboard. I've noticed improvement, occasionally, by cutting into stacked paper (like a catalog or phone book).

I wouldn't worry too much about creating a new burr on a micro bevel. A micro bevel is normally done in just a few strokes, using VERY LIGHT PRESSURE (no more than the weight of the blade). Don't have to put much 'grunt' into it, because it's removing a very tiny bit of steel at the very edge, at an elevated angle. When done light & a bit steeper (wider angle) than the original bevel, there's not much opportunity for new burrs to form.
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Hmm... All this time I thought you were supposed to raise a burr when doing a microbevel. Usually I do accomplish that in only a couple of light strokes and then having to work it off as normal. Maybe I'm going about that wrong?
 
KennyB said:
Hmm... All this time I thought you were supposed to raise a burr when doing a microbevel. Usually I do accomplish that in only a couple of light strokes and then having to work it off as normal. Maybe I'm going about that wrong?
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The only reason to raise a burr, is to ensure the main (primary) bevel has been fully apexed. Once that's done, there's no reason to raise another burr. The common remedy for removing the burr from the primary edge bevel, by making very light, edge-leading strokes at an elevated angle on a stone, is essentially the very same thing as forming a micro bevel. This is why there'd be no purpose in deliberately forming a burr on a micro-bevel.
 
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KennyB said:
Does the type of wood matter much? I only have douglas fur in the garage, and then there's this wood my caliper's case is made out of... No idea what it is

Anyway, I did everything over again and after all was said and done saw another glint of light after doing some basic sharpness-tests. So I sliced into the caliper case with some pretty decent pressure and there wasn't any trace of the glint left. I had to strop a little bit after that but it's back to as sharp as I normally like, and I'm not seeing anymore glints after shaving and cutting up phone book paper.

So I think I got the burr off... I don't know, I'm thinking about putting a small micro-bevel on anyway because these bevels just aren't very flat and I noticed with the marker-trick today that it takes a couple of strokes for me to actually hit the part of the edge I want... So I think a micro-bevel might just be easier to manage overall, my only concern about it is whether it will go in easy and whether its burr will be just as stubborn to work off.
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I've had mixed results using microbevels. Its all too easy to simply create yet another burr, even if it is a bit smaller. Verhoeven noted this in his paper when using the TruHone to create a microbevel.Though I have successfully used them in the past I find they work best for reducing time and metal lost rather than for burr removal - particularly useful when using Arkansas stones on harder steels, that sort of thing.


If there's a stretch of edge that's not getting hit well, I'd recommend staying with it till you're satisfied the bevels are good. That it takes a handful of passes to hit it is nothing to be concerned about. One thing that I have to wonder about, Norton claims their waterstones don't create a burr, my own experiences with them (though somewhat limited at this point) would seem to back up their claims. You might want to do a bit more edge leading on the stones as you finish. I find that even on the King waterstones and certainly on the Nortons, I cannot even raise a burr without doing a bunch of edge trailing strokes.

This might be helpful, a thread I started recently about my own issues with waterstones, the Norton's in particular - I included some pics taken with a microscope at work to better illustrate my findings.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/870396-Waterstone-potential
 
HeavyHanded said:
I've had mixed results using microbevels. Its all too easy to simply create yet another burr, even if it is a bit smaller. Verhoeven noted this in his paper when using the TruHone to create a microbevel.Though I have successfully used them in the past I find they work best for reducing time and metal lost rather than for burr removal - particularly useful when using Arkansas stones on harder steels, that sort of thing.


If there's a stretch of edge that's not getting hit well, I'd recommend staying with it till you're satisfied the bevels are good. That it takes a handful of passes to hit it is nothing to be concerned about. One thing that I have to wonder about, Norton claims their waterstones don't create a burr, my own experiences with them (though somewhat limited at this point) would seem to back up their claims. You might want to do a bit more edge leading on the stones as you finish. I find that even on the King waterstones and certainly on the Nortons, I cannot even raise a burr without doing a bunch of edge trailing strokes.

This might be helpful, a thread I started recently about my own issues with waterstones, the Norton's in particular - I included some pics taken with a microscope at work to better illustrate my findings.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/870396-Waterstone-potential
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Yeah, that's pretty much the trouble and merit I've found with microbevels as well.

I don't know about Nortons supposedly not raising a burr... I use to sharpen with edge-leading strokes exclusively and I'd still get some pretty stubborn burrs sometimes, but the key has always been to keep doing the edge-leading strokes with lighter and lighter pressure until the stone scrubs the burr off. As far as Nortons not getting burrs, I heard somewhere that the progression of grits is supposed to take care of the burr as you go along.

I don't really think I use edge-trailing strokes all that much compared to leading... The only time I actually use edge-trailing strokes is following a edge-leading stroke. Sometimes that's in the general "scrubbing" motion on one portion of the blade, or just going from heel-to-tip and then tip-to-heel. I just do that during the bevel setting, once I feel a burr anywhere I generally switch to edge-leading exclusively. Someone suggested that because there was so much more stock to remove, all the extra edge-trailing could have "sculpted" the burr to be longer and hang on more, and I think that would make sense.

Also, once again today after a while I noticed the same glint... The exact same shape and I think the same spot, despite the fact that I just redid the edge. I had raised and removed a burr like I usually do though gave it a little more scrubbing and all that with the caliper case like I said... So it seems weird that little dent would persist. I'd probably dismiss it as coincidence, if not for the fact that on that particular spot of the blade I had a fairly rolled over area when I had the more obtuse grind on, and I wonder if maybe it's some remnant of that. It would have stuck around through an awful lot of profiling, but I've had something like that happen before.

I'll check out that thread, I've glanced at it a time or two recently but haven't had the chance to give it a full read.
 
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KennyB said:
Also, once again today after a while I noticed the same glint... The exact same shape and I think the same spot, despite the fact that I just redid the edge. I had raised and removed a burr like I usually do though gave it a little more scrubbing and all that with the caliper case like I said... So it seems weird that little dent would persist. I'd probably dismiss it as coincidence, if not for the fact that on that particular spot of the blade I had a fairly rolled over area when I had the more obtuse grind on, and I wonder if maybe it's some remnant of that. It would have stuck around through an awful lot of profiling, but I've had something like that happen before.

I'll check out that thread, I've glanced at it a time or two recently but haven't had the chance to give it a full read.
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Sounds like you might have remnants of that rolled over spot - I'm finding a bit of slurry on a waterstone can hide some small edge defects with a bunch of light abrasion and the problem spots might not become clear till after I've stropped. Best of luck figuring this one out. When in doubt, trust Mr Sharpie and some good lighting.
 
Just something I noticed when scrolling through the replies, but I would recommend stropping with the edge trailing. In case there are any impurities in the stone your edge will slide over these, instead of cutting into them. I think you might get better results.
 
Every stone and every grit will raise a burr, its science. A burr is plastic deformation caused by the abrasive and pressure.

You are reducing the surface with each grit making a new scratch pattern and in turn making a new burr just a smaller one. Steel permitting you can use light strokes and be burr free at any grit but you will always create a burr through setting a bevel or grit progression.
 
What kind of compound do you guys think would be best coming off a 1000 stone? I still don't really want to pay the price for a good finishing stone and the MDF with CrO was just a cheap strop solution that I figured would work better than plain leather.

I figure that coming off a 1000 grit stone using something like 9 or 3 micron compound would probably be really fine and work better for taking the burr off... The CrO seems to work for the stubborn wire-edges that stick on, but not without a lot of strokes, and it won't really touch the big burrs. So it would be nice to find something a little coarser to strop the burr off with.


Also, the edge seems to be pretty nice now. Had to cut up some dusty cardboard... Not a huge task amount but enough where I'd expect to see more change on the edge if there was a wire left. Definitely like the 30* inclusive geometry more, went through the cardboard like butter.
 
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