Too Thin or Wire Edge?

Another stone would solve many problems, a strop and some compound could create some. By the time you get a new compound and strop you would have spent half the money or more for a stone.
 
KennyB said:
What kind of compound do you guys think would be best coming off a 1000 stone? I still don't really want to pay the price for a good finishing stone and the MDF with CrO was just a cheap strop solution that I figured would work better than plain leather.

I figure that coming off a 1000 grit stone using something like 9 or 3 micron compound would probably be really fine and work better for taking the burr off... The CrO seems to work for the stubborn wire-edges that stick on, but not without a lot of strokes, and it won't really touch the big burrs. So it would be nice to find something a little coarser to strop the burr off with.


Also, the edge seems to be pretty nice now. Had to cut up some dusty cardboard... Not a huge task amount but enough where I'd expect to see more change on the edge if there was a wire left. Definitely like the 30* inclusive geometry more, went through the cardboard like butter.
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The Norton 1000 grit waterstone is about 500-600 git CAMI, a very good match for the black emery compound from Sears. With compound, any piece of craft shop scrap leather will work fine - I tape mine to piece of wood, just nothing too soft - if you use the rough side, make sure the nap isn't too thick, you can actually give it a good rub down with the 200 grit side of your stone (dry) or just use the smooth side and give that a rub with the 200 grit stone for good measure as well. The rough side will work better for burr removal, the smooth side will work better for refinement (make 2?). Using this exact setup I whipped up an edge that could dry shave some stubble off my face, pushcut down thru paper towel, etc and still have some good tooth for tougher fare - off of the same stone you're using. You can go with additional stones, but all that's going to do is change the character of your cutting edge it won't necessarily produce a "sharper" edge or make it easier to remove the burr IMHO. ANother option is to just work up a slurry on your 1000 grit side with a bit of water and rub that across some scrap leather - it should work great. BTW those Norton waterstones wear fast, are you keeping it lapped flat?
 
HeavyHanded said:
. ANother option is to just work up a slurry on your 1000 grit side with a bit of water and rub that across some scrap leather - it should work great. BTW those Norton waterstones wear fast, are you keeping it lapped flat?
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if you don't want to spend more money at this point i think the recommendation above is your best bet. waterstone grits usually work way finer when free and applied to a softer backing but still in the same range than the stone (obviously) so it'll take care of some stubborn burrs. even if the best option is to get mostly rid of them on the stone.

the lapping question is also a good one. it's the most important point with waterstones, most people don't really care but if your stone isn't flat you'll get crappy results. and no it won't make a convex edge it'll make a bad edge because at the end of the forward stroke your edge will be cutting into the stone/slurry.
 
I hardly ever work up a slurry on the stone actually. Not really sure why, just don't really ever form one.

Also, I checked the flatness with a square, it didn't seem too bad... There was definitely one side that was lower than the other, but I made sure to mark that and grind on the parts that were flat.
 
ok so i assume you never flatten it ?

i'm sorry buddy but from my experience (10 years+ using waterstones daily to maintan my work knives, worn several stones ....) just after the sharpening you've done on this izula, your stone needs flattening BAD ... the 220 even worst.

a 1K stone shouldn't do more than 2 serious sharpening without lapping, a 220 i usually flatten after every sharpening and i even have to during a session sometimes, especially when working on smaller blades where the flat is less than the width of the stone. you can try to limit this by turning the stone 180° from time to time and focusing on using all the surface. but this is something i'd rather eliminate until you're fairly good at everything else.
 
pwet said:
ok so i assume you never flatten it ?

i'm sorry buddy but from my experience (10 years+ using waterstones daily to maintan my work knives, worn several stones ....) just after the sharpening you've done on this izula, your stone needs flattening BAD ... the 220 even worst.

a 1K stone shouldn't do more than 2 serious sharpening without lapping, a 220 i usually flatten after every sharpening and i even have to during a session sometimes, especially when working on smaller blades where the flat is less than the width of the stone. you can try to limit this by turning the stone 180° from time to time and focusing on using all the surface. but this is something i'd rather eliminate until you're fairly good at everything else.
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Heh, actually quite the contrary, I flatten this thing so much that it's only 1/2" thick now, but the problem is that the low spots I have are so low I'd be removing a lot of stone to get them. So there's just this one low spot on one side of the stone that goes out toward the center of the stone to about 3/8" of an inch, and then everything is even. So like you said, I just spin it 180 degrees. Otherwise I'd be going through a looot of sandpaper and stone to get it perfectly flat.

I've wanted to find some sidewalk to flatten it on for a while, but all the concrete around my house has these nasty little black pebbles in it that scratch it and I haven't wanted to flatten all the way with these in fear that I won't be able to get the scratches out.

Oh, and, won't it change how the bevel is making contact once I flatten it? So if I flattened my 1000 and then tried to sharpen the blade as is, won't it not make contact like it was before and force me to start over? I'm wondering if maybe I can get away with just flattening the 1000 side for now.

Edit:

Oh, and knifenut, is there any of the DMTs you'd reccomend using at this stage? The $80 for the 4000/8000 Norton is just too much.
 
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Well, I flattened my stone...

No wire edge, but it did still seem kind of hard to get to the actual edge. I think I just wasn't holding the angle steady enough.
 
I have to ask, are you giving that stone a good soak and adding a bit of water to it as you go? I like the waterstones - they're not my favorite, but they work well and one of the best features is the amount of feedback. I find its almost impossible for me to miss a bevel and can feel and hit the apex dead-on, even on a convex edge, very easily - as long as the stone doesn't dry out. Use that Sharpie and you're sure to improve how well you hit the bevel.
 
HeavyHanded said:
I have to ask, are you giving that stone a good soak and adding a bit of water to it as you go? I like the waterstones - they're not my favorite, but they work well and one of the best features is the amount of feedback. I find its almost impossible for me to miss a bevel and can feel and hit the apex dead-on, even on a convex edge, very easily - as long as the stone doesn't dry out. Use that Sharpie and you're sure to improve how well you hit the bevel.
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Yeah, I give it a good ten minute soak prior to sharpening and generally try to keep the top wet. Sometimes I'll wind up making a "dry" spot ( not really, but less watter than every place else ) with a couple of strokes so every once in a while I have to kind of rub some water in to place so the whole stone is covered.

The feedback is good too and I can tell when I'm hitting the apex, but it's almost like I'm not sure how much to tilt the angle up in order to hit it so it takes me a couple of extra strokes to really find the sweet-spot. So if you think of it as, "Well, this burr might take 5 strokes to take off," it really turns into a matter of 15 strokes because 2/3 strokes is simply spent trying to find the apex. Though I guess that just means it's a matter of patience.

I like the marker too, but one thing that really irritates me about it is that sometimes it wears off far before the grinding is ever even hitting it. It's almost like the water and the slurry rub it off without it ever really even contacting the stone. I've had moments in the past where I there was no marker left on the edge so I thought, "Okay, I got my burr," but went to check on the other side and it wasn't there. In contrast to that, if I'm trying to rub a burr off and I'm using the marker to make sure I'm hitting where the burr is, I don't know if it's going to serve me that same false-positive. So in some cases the marker isn't the most useful. That or I'm just using it wrong...
 
as you found out, you can't use the marker trick on waterstones like on diamond stones due to the slurry. you can't paint your bevel and go to work checking from time to time where your are. the idea here is to work your bevel, check by painting it, wiping the stone and making a couple strokes. then adjust accordingly.

in fact even with diamond stone you have to repaint the bevel from time to time because one stroke too obtuse can wipe all the marker even if the actual bevel you're working on isn't going all the way to the edge.
 
pwet said:
as you found out, you can't use the marker trick on waterstones like on diamond stones due to the slurry. you can't paint your bevel and go to work checking from time to time where your are. the idea here is to work your bevel, check by painting it, wiping the stone and making a couple strokes. then adjust accordingly.

in fact even with diamond stone you have to repaint the bevel from time to time because one stroke too obtuse can wipe all the marker even if the actual bevel you're working on isn't going all the way to the edge.
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Yeah, I have found though that for some reason if you just paint little lines they stay on better, and they still have the added benefit of showing where you're grinding at, even if they kind of lie about whether you're really at the very edge with the water-stone. I mostly use them to make sure that I'm hitting the bevel evenly across belly contours and to make sure I'm getting the tip.
 
One thing that I'll do when using a Sharpie on the waterstones is to make sure it's completely dry before starting - it stays on a lot better that way. Also, with good lighting and a loupe (8-15x) its pretty easy to see where the swarf is being smeared into the grind pattern - makes a debris line that's easy to see. Otherwise I just tilt it in the light and can see where it hasn't reached the apex yet. I have to repeat my earlier observation and this only applies to the Norton waterstones - I cannot reliably create a burr with these stones no matter how long I hit the apex or if I spend a bit of time without flipping sides - they release their grit and binder so fast and easily that the burr gets abraded off as soon as it forms as long as the slurry is wet (see pics in my waterstone thread). Sometimes a very small one will form but generally it turns out to be nothing but debris that wipes away with a few passes on a pant leg. Have seen this with 1095, Aus6, and Aus8 steel. My King stones will create a small burr, but they seem to use a harder binder. Cannot speak for any other brand in this regard.
 
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