Tookie Williams

I think Tookie did try to have a positive effect on youth during his incarcaration, unfortunately I think that is irrelevant here. Hopefully the work he did will continue to have that positive influence.

I am pro death penalty, however I don't believe our system provides a deterrant. In Iran, when you get the death penalty they tie you in a burlap sack and throw you off a cliff. If that doesn't kill you they hang you. Immediately, with no apologies. I don't think that is ideal, but I do think it provides incentive to live a life apart from crime.

One recent thread dealt with China executing a drug dealer. Howard posted that this type of program is working for them. I believe in the post they hung the offender in a very quick and public way. Now that is a deterrant. 24 years of death row living followed by a painless lethal injection is no deterrant.

If we took the guy out of the courthouse and dropped a car on him in front of the world there would be lots less murders I'd bet. Some of these guys that have raped and murdered children certainly deserve no less.
 
[quote}Reginald Denny getting the living $H%* beat out of him[/quote]

I know what I would have done if I was Denny...I would have stayed in the truck, locked the doors and got up to about 4th or 5th gear and not stopped until I was out of fuel. Anything, metal or flesh, got in my way? Too bad.
 
Reginald Denny getting the living $H%* beat out of him
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I know what I would have done if I was Denny...I would have stayed in the truck, locked the doors and got up to about 4th or 5th gear and not stopped until I was out of fuel. Anything, metal or flesh, got in my way? Too bad.
 
Well, it's over now. Tookie's gone. I don't see any rioting yet, and I hope it stays that way.

Chris
 
Even though I am fairly liberal I have always favored the death penalty.

I have always believed that some people are unredeemable and why should society be burdened with the cost of imprisoning them when the money could be used to provide universal health care or something.

However over time my position has changed on it.:rolleyes:

First working cases I have often seen cases be rushed out and a decision made because the case was old or high profile with the RIGHT decision being secondary to the FAST decision. I have no reason to believe that cops have any less and probably MORE motivation to get the case out.

Second, with the advent of DNA testing a significant number of death row inmates have been exonerated. This tends to reinforce #1 above.

Third death sentences seem to be greatly influenced by race and money. If you got a good lawyer you can get out of it.


I am not real familiar with the case, but the one thing that sticks out to me is that I heard the guy denied doing the killing. Now I'm sure every killer, or most anyway deny doing it, but back to #1 and #2 above in the absence of an eye witness, or a store camera showing the crime I'm not sure that they shouldn't give people the benefit of the doubt and give them life.

I can see giving the death penalty when there is video or good witnesses saying they did it still, but so few cases seem to be that clear cut.

I also remember that Jesus was falsley accused and given capital punishment based on heresay, and he said that an "eye for an eye" was the old law.:)
 
I might just be a hard@$$ about this kind of thing, but Tookie died for what he was convicted of doing...murdering people in cold blood. He was convicted, he was given the death sentence, and no new evidence turned up to reverse that. It doesn't matter if he has atoned for what he has done (which he did not). It doesn't matter that he wrote a bunch of books that help keep kids off the streets. You don't do good work on death row to try and get out of your fate. The facts are facts. He murdered people. Anything he writes or awards he wins can go towards his Karma. He can do these good things to make his peace with God, but writing some children's books and having "expert" celebs rally to your cause does not mean you have earned the right leapfrog over your sentence.
Tookie was not a stupid man. He was able to organize one of the biggest most violent criminal gangs in the US. He KNEW that if he had any chance to beat the needle that he was going to have to start early. Unlike most death row inmates that try the last ditch approach, he started a while back to build up steam. I have not read his books. I do not know what is in his heart, but in my honest opinion, a gang founder saying "stay out of gangs" has as much of an effect as the tabacco companies running commercials about not smoking. Now instead of getting kids that sit on the fence, the Crypts are going to get the most hardballing members who don't have a choice or WANT to have that lifestyle.
To me, the proof was in the pudding. On the day of his execution he did not apologize, he did not show remorse for anything. He was a gambler that had played and bluffed every hand he had, but the house took him.
The facts were there, and it seems that he died for the crimes he had committed. How many more books do you think he would have written once his sentence was turn over to life in prison? What would be the motivation? I think this ties into that good intention/bad intention thread.

Jake
 
Steely_Gunz said:
The facts were there, and it seems that he died for the crimes he had committed. How many more books do you think he would have written once his sentence was turn over to life in prison? What would be the motivation? I think this ties into that good intention/bad intention thread.

Jake
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What were the facts exactly? Were there any eye witnesses? What sort of physical evidence linked him to the crime? I haven't really heard on any of the reports I have read on it.
 
California's own Attorney General, a Democrat, has gone to the Supreme Court and asked something to be done about the Ninth Circuit District Court of Appeals. That court, btw, saw no reason to change Tookie's fate, but that was an anomally with their ruling history. The AG argues his State can't get convictions, the 9th nit picks and overules on techicalities that are true stretches, that this is costly, and that by the time the State can retry often witnesses and other evidence is not available and the perps go free.


munk
 
I see where you are comeing from, HD. Re-reading my post, it sounds angry. I am not. Our prison system is busted. Death is a finite blow that doesn't "fix" anything, and when you make an oopsie. it's a big oopsie. I am not familiar with the case. I'm just saying that "all things being equal and correct" he did not deserve a stay of execution. My point is that if our society says you did somethig, proves it (subjective, I know, but hypothetically), and sentences you to a punishment, then you should get that punishment. It doesn't matter whether it's 3 days in jail, 3 years in prison, death, or being tickled until you pee your pants, you should, IMHO, get the punishment you were sentenced to. I guess my point isn't whether death is right or wrong or that he deserved it or not or even if he is truly guilty. My point it hypothetical. If you do the crime, then you get your punishment. The only thing that can change that is evidence that clears you of the crime that crops up from DNA or a witness shows up with hard proof. Just because he wrote some books and was a "good" inmate does not clear him of killing 4 people. He does not deserve 3 square meals a day on tax payers dollars to keep him fat and happy for the next 30 years of his life while he can thumb his nose at the system
I agree that if he really was sorry for what he did, if the books he wrote really were to keep kids off the streets and out of gangs, and he really truly turned his life around, then the good he has done is just that...good. He still needed to take his medicine for what he had done. The good works he has done can go towards Karma and redeption in his view of faith, but it does not clear him of murder.
Like I said, I do see your point. I think our system is busted. Death comes to murderers long after the viseral shock wears off. They soften and people forget. The hurt and anger turn to saddness and a yerning for closure by the family. However, I think life in prison is a drain of society as well. Sure they are off the streets, but are costing us a fortune to feed because of technicalities. I don't know how to fix it. My concern isn't with Tookie, his death, or even the crimes. It's more of a point of hypothetics.

Jake
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I see where you are comeing from, HD. Re-reading my post, it sounds angry. I am not. Our prison system is busted. Death is a finite blow that doesn't "fix" anything, and when you make an oopsie. it's a big oopsie. I am not familiar with the case. I'm just saying that "all things being equal and correct" he did not deserve a stay of execution. My point is that if our society says you did somethig, proves it (subjective, I know, but hypothetically), and sentences you to a punishment, then you should get that punishment. It doesn't matter whether it's 3 days in jail, 3 years in prison, death, or being tickled until you pee your pants, you should, IMHO, get the punishment you were sentenced to. I guess my point isn't whether death is right or wrong or that he deserved it or not or even if he is truly guilty. My point it hypothetical. If you do the crime, then you get your punishment. The only thing that can change that is evidence that clears you of the crime that crops up from DNA or a witness shows up with hard proof. Just because he wrote some books and was a "good" inmate does not clear him of killing 4 people. He does not deserve 3 square meals a day on tax payers dollars to keep him fat and happy for the next 30 years of his life while he can thumb his nose at the system
I agree that if he really was sorry for what he did, if the books he wrote really were to keep kids off the streets and out of gangs, and he really truly turned his life around, then the good he has done is just that...good. He still needed to take his medicine for what he had done. The good works he has done can go towards Karma and redeption in his view of faith, but it does not clear him of murder.
Like I said, I do see your point. I think our system is busted. Death comes to murderers long after the viseral shock wears off. They soften and people forget. The hurt and anger turn to saddness and a yerning for closure by the family. However, I think life in prison is a drain of society as well. Sure they are off the streets, but are costing us a fortune to feed because of technicalities. I don't know how to fix it. My concern isn't with Tookie, his death, or even the crimes. It's more of a point of hypothetics.

Jake
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No offense taken. My point was that I didn't really know much about the details of the case, and it was hard for me to have an opinion without it.

For instance totally ignoring whether he had reformed or not in the years on death row, I just wondered what the actual details of the case were.

45-70 posted that link but as far as I could see from all the stories I scanned they had somebody talking about seeing him executed and two talking heads arguing over the death penalty, but nothing on the actual details of the case.

So the guy said he was innocent but if there was no solid physical evidence that the man actually did commit the murder, which he denied doing, then I would be more for commuting his sentence. However regardless of his redemption if there was strong physical evidence that he actually was the trigger man then I would say go ahead.

I guess I am gonna have to do a web search to actually find out the facts of the case.

I find it interesting there are scores of reports of arguments over the death penalty and his being reformed, but none over what evidence was originally used.
 
hollowdweller said:
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45-70 posted that link but as far as I could see from all the stories I scanned they had somebody talking about seeing him executed and two talking heads arguing over the death penalty, but nothing on the actual details of the case.



I guess I am gonna have to do a web search to actually find out the facts of the case.
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Yep, i posted the link, didn't intend to answer any questions regarding the the guilt or innocence of the man. Something tells me to get more than a he said or she said, we'd have to build another forum and all get degrees.

Yuck.

Don't know if he is guilty or if he is innocent. However he is dead; and I am going to work.
 
hollowdweller said:
Who goes out to a gunstore and buys a shotgun and then uses it in a crime! Wonder what the guys IQ is
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This guy wrote children's books?

I'm going to check amazon for titles like The cat with the gat.
 
BruiseLeee said:
This guy wrote children's books?

I'm going to check amazon for titles like The cat with the gat.
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I think i've heard of that one. Didn't he also write "Oh the Places You Will Go... And Knock Over With Deadly Force"?
and the holiday mugging classic "How the Grinch Stole Christmas At Knife Point"

Jake
 
This guy wrote children's books?

I'm going to check amazon for titles like The cat with the gat.
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Damn you Bruise, once again you caused me to laugh right outloud in the office at something that I can't really explain to them---especially since I should be working right now:D
 
Tookie was convicted of 4 murders. As stated below the cases weren't airtight. Most of the witnesses were criminals doing it for amunity.

Here is something people haven't discussed, at least as far as I have heard. Tookie was kind of like Pandora. Once he opened the Crips box he couldn't close it again and didn't try until on death row. He was responsible for setting up that immense criminial network. He influenced many many people. He ordered a vast number of murders. The murders continue today. The operations have not ceased to expand. He was responsible for this ongoing orginazition of hopelessness and violence.

The four murders were a convenient way to get him off of the street. How could we commute his sentence AND send a message to gang members that there are consequences?
 
NO need to re-try the whole deal here...as far as I am concerned...

I have read a lot of the stuff on line...

I could care less about all the "he said~she said" between the two sides....

A man is dead...

By all accounts he died well.

Wanna bet they give him a Nobel as a sign of protest?

Shane
 
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