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Tool Steels compared to S30V?
- Thread starter GarageBoy
- Start date
Imo once you get into the high end steels (154cm, vg10, s30v, d2, m2 etc.) they all seem pretty much the same to me. Obviously there are differences in edge holding, toughness, etc but for normal everyday use with regular sharpening/maintenance they work pretty much the same. Imo just having the steel being stainless is a good enough incentive to pick it over a tool steel
Cliff Stamp
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GarageBoy :
Those three tool steels are very different. O1, especially when spring differentially tempered is many times tougher and more ductile than S30V, with similar edge retention in regards to resisting deformation and less in resisting wear.
M2 and D2 are both very high wear resistant steels, though S30V is also very high in this regard. None of them including S30V are very tough nor ductile. M2 can get significantly harder and would be the best choice for low impact cutting.
-Cliff
Those three tool steels are very different. O1, especially when spring differentially tempered is many times tougher and more ductile than S30V, with similar edge retention in regards to resisting deformation and less in resisting wear.
M2 and D2 are both very high wear resistant steels, though S30V is also very high in this regard. None of them including S30V are very tough nor ductile. M2 can get significantly harder and would be the best choice for low impact cutting.
-Cliff
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GarageBoy, if you're into sharpened prybars, have Cliff tell you about CPM 3V. !!! (Can't search just "3v" due to too few characters. Perhaps "3V***")
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Check it out at WWW.CRUCIBLESERVICE.COM. I know Cliff tested at least one knife in CPM 3V and found it pretty good, bit I won't try to speak for him.
GarageBoy, go to Crucibles site - http://www.crucibleservice.com/index.cfm# and read the PDF on Selection of Tool Steels. To get there, click on the orange selector tab and then General Information this should answer most of your questions.
After that, check out this section on knife steels -
http://www.crucibleservice.com/cutlery.cfm#
- Frank
After that, check out this section on knife steels -
http://www.crucibleservice.com/cutlery.cfm#
- Frank
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- Mar 7, 2003
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S30V IS a tool steel. Just look at the chemistry and properties. Being stainless has no bearing on whether something is a tool steel.
It has the best features of many of the other "tool steels".
It has the best features of many of the other "tool steels".
Who uses CPM 3V? I see that S30V is similar to a tool steel with the addition of being stainless. Tool steels still have this mystique. (I'll never forget seeing the video clip of the Desert Knife Works Sandshark O1 steel being shoved into a steel barrel)
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Jerry Hossom and Eric Ferhman to name two.
Cpm3v is reportedly very strong. It makes a fine choice for blades since the edge can be kept thin for high cutting ability and the blade still be plenty tough for applications like prying, etc..
Cpm S30V has A-2 level toughness which is significantly lower than cpm3v
0-1 is very close to S30V in that department.
If I'm not mistaken, Trace Rinaldi uses some of those tool steels.
Cpm S30V has A-2 level toughness which is significantly lower than cpm3v
0-1 is very close to S30V in that department.
If I'm not mistaken, Trace Rinaldi uses some of those tool steels.
Cliff Stamp
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Kaos :
CPM-S30V has no where near the impact toughness of A2, even as per CPM' own spec sheets, the ductility is also very low. CPM-3V is however significantly tougher than A2 and several times more ductile. CPM-3V is a fine steel for large knives, note however that it does as many makers claim set an extreme standard for toughness.
CPM-3V only stands out so strongly as most makers using it used to use really brittle steels like ATS-34, if they instead had been using steels like O1 the reaction to CPM-3V would have been a lot different. It is like asking someone who lived at the north pole if they find the weather hot if they move somewhere else.
As for
"Tool steel" this is defined as a steel used to make tools, a lot of steels fall into this catagory which would made pretty poor knives. In the cutlery industry however it is a generic term for high grade non-stainless, it is used for promotional mainly like surgical stainless.
-Cliff
CPM-S30V has no where near the impact toughness of A2, even as per CPM' own spec sheets, the ductility is also very low. CPM-3V is however significantly tougher than A2 and several times more ductile. CPM-3V is a fine steel for large knives, note however that it does as many makers claim set an extreme standard for toughness.
CPM-3V only stands out so strongly as most makers using it used to use really brittle steels like ATS-34, if they instead had been using steels like O1 the reaction to CPM-3V would have been a lot different. It is like asking someone who lived at the north pole if they find the weather hot if they move somewhere else.
As for
"Tool steel" this is defined as a steel used to make tools, a lot of steels fall into this catagory which would made pretty poor knives. In the cutlery industry however it is a generic term for high grade non-stainless, it is used for promotional mainly like surgical stainless.
-Cliff
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- Apr 27, 1999
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- 6,117
From Watanabeblade.com
The Steel Used In Japanese Knives
When people talk about traditional Japanese knives, you may hear them say that the knives were made from "white (Shiro in Japanese)" steel or "blue (Ao)" steel. Alternatively, they might say "white paper (Shiro Kami)" steel or "blue paper (Ao Kami)" steel. These are not technical standards but refer to the color of the labels that Hitachi uses for some of their commercial grade steels. Among Japanese manufacturers, these become "Blue Label #1," "White Label #2," and so on. Both types are high-carbon steels in the 1.0% to 1.2% carbon range alloyed with silica (0.1% to 0.2%) and manganese (0.2% to 0.3%). The "blue paper" steels also have chromium (0.2% to 0.5%) and Tungsten (1.0% to 1.5%) added for toughness. Japanese manufacturers routinely produce knives from these steels in the Rc62 to Rc64 range, substantially harder than any Western-style blades.
For the soft-steel back, they use a very low carbon steel (0.06%) with a bit of silica and manganese (both at 0.2%). The highest-quality tools still use wrought iron from old anchors or anchor chain as the backing material.
The Steel Used In Japanese Knives
When people talk about traditional Japanese knives, you may hear them say that the knives were made from "white (Shiro in Japanese)" steel or "blue (Ao)" steel. Alternatively, they might say "white paper (Shiro Kami)" steel or "blue paper (Ao Kami)" steel. These are not technical standards but refer to the color of the labels that Hitachi uses for some of their commercial grade steels. Among Japanese manufacturers, these become "Blue Label #1," "White Label #2," and so on. Both types are high-carbon steels in the 1.0% to 1.2% carbon range alloyed with silica (0.1% to 0.2%) and manganese (0.2% to 0.3%). The "blue paper" steels also have chromium (0.2% to 0.5%) and Tungsten (1.0% to 1.5%) added for toughness. Japanese manufacturers routinely produce knives from these steels in the Rc62 to Rc64 range, substantially harder than any Western-style blades.
For the soft-steel back, they use a very low carbon steel (0.06%) with a bit of silica and manganese (both at 0.2%). The highest-quality tools still use wrought iron from old anchors or anchor chain as the backing material.
The Tourist
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Let me be really honest for a knut. If a knife is made from good steel and tempered by a guy who knows what he's doing, I can't tell one steel from another.
Oh, to be sure, they sharpen a tad differently, but that's about it.
I find that sharpening and shining 154-CM and S30V is a joy and the knives that I own slice very smoothly.
I do have a Chang custom, a real pleasure to use. Get this, it's made from very common 1084. A careful craftsman and a good heat treat seem to work as well as the space-age stuff.
Oh, to be sure, they sharpen a tad differently, but that's about it.
I find that sharpening and shining 154-CM and S30V is a joy and the knives that I own slice very smoothly.
I do have a Chang custom, a real pleasure to use. Get this, it's made from very common 1084. A careful craftsman and a good heat treat seem to work as well as the space-age stuff.