"Toothy" coarse edge finish on Edge Pro/Haptone/Tsprof?

S

Strauss95

Joined
Dec 17, 2012
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For the Edge Pro/Hapstone/Tsprof users I was just wondering what stone you like to finish on for a coarse, "toothy" edge finish?

When sharpening freehand I would typically finish on my DMT coarse or fine, or the Venev F240 or F400 if using resin bonded stones. I have the following stones for my Edge Pro....

Stock Edge Pro stones: 220/400/600/1000
Chosera stones: 400/1000/3000/5000/10000
CKTG diamond plate: 140

Gritomatic budget diamond plate set: 240/600/1000
Edge Pro diamond matrix stones: 80/250/650/1100/2300/4000
Cheap diamond plate set: 80/200/400/600/800/1000/1500/2000/3000

I recently started using my Edge Pro again after it sat un-used for the past 5 years or so. I only had the stock Edge Pro stones, CKTG 140 diamond plate, and the Chosera set so I lacked the proper stones to sharpen all of my recent super steels, which is the main reason I hadn't used it in awhile. I REALLY love the diamond matrix stones.
 
If I'm reading the Gritomatic chart correctly, your Edge Pro diamond matrix 1100 should be pretty close to the Venev F400, the 650 would be closer to the F240.

I'd assume either your Gritomatic diamond plates or cheap diamond plates would contain a grit similar to your fine DMT. Maybe the 600-800.
 
When comparing stones the grit size is only part of the equation, the bond is about as important, as well as some other variables. The Matrix 650 leaves a finer scratch pattern than the Orion 240 and the Matrix 1100 leaves a finer scratch pattern than the Orion 400. The Orions are the 100% versions. I did a video comparing the two sets of stones on an S90V blade recently that you may find interesting. It has side by side microscope photos showing what the blade looks like after each stone so you can see what the differences are.

 
I usually finish with the Venev Centaur F240, on my work knives. I really like that stone.
I sharpened one with the F80 and F150, just to experiment, then finished it with a 1 micron diamond loaded strop.
Was not at all disappointed with the end result.
 
Thank you Diemaker for chiming in, and thank you for bringing such amazing stones to the market!

Sounds like I may want to try experimenting with finishing on either the diamond matrix 250 or 650 for an edge with a ton of bite. After watching your videos I'll also try finishing with a bare leather strop instead of my usual 1 micron diamond loaded strop to help preserve the bite.

I actually don't have the diamond matrix 80 or 4000 yet, I ordered them yesterday to complete the set so I'm waiting for them to arrive. I have been using the CKTG 140 diamond plate for initial bevel setting, followed by the cheap 400 grit diamond plate before switching to the diamond matrix stones if/when I'm running up through the grits. The diamond matrix stones are SOOOO much nicer in use compared to the plates. I can't wait for the 80 grit to arrive so I can stop using the 140 grit plate on my nice knives. I'll most likely continue using the budget diamond plates on low quality gummy stainless steel knives of friends, unless that's not a problem for the matrix stones? I honestly haven't tried them on crap steel since I treasure them so much, I didn't want to risk hurting them lol.
 
Diemaker said:
When comparing stones the grit size is only part of the equation, the bond is about as important, as well as some other variables. The Matrix 650 leaves a finer scratch pattern than the Orion 240 and the Matrix 1100 leaves a finer scratch pattern than the Orion 400. The Orions are the 100% versions. I did a video comparing the two sets of stones on an S90V blade recently that you may find interesting. It has side by side microscope photos showing what the blade looks like after each stone so you can see what the differences are.

Click to expand...
I have a 25% n 100% venev 1200/2000. The 100% leaves a lot more scratches. When most people talk about the venev they are talking about the 25% in my experience. I don't have a f400 in both concentrations but if its the same I'm guessing he'd be happy with the matrix 650 or 1100.

I'm curious about sharpening only trailing edge. I don't lift my stone until I get to finishing stones and I only make contact with the stone the opposite way. I guess leading edge? If I'm getting into finer grits I'll do a couple stones this way. I normally don't have to strop to be hair popping sharp, on finer grits whittling. Is there a reason you only make contact that way? Wanna do a video of different grits trailing vs leading?
 
I've had my 8x3" Venev set for almost 4 years, purchased them when they first introduced the OCB binder and they are 100% concentration. It's crazy how large of a difference there is in quality of edge finish between resin bonded and plated diamonds.

It's entirely possible I may find I prefer plated diamonds when wanting a coarse aggressive edge finish. But I'm going to experiment with the matrix 250 and 650.
 
Strauss95, I know for a fact that the Matrix stones do not like soft or very gummy steels. It won't hurt the stones as long as you keep the pressure light but IME your knives won't like them either. For those steels, vitreous bond aluminum oxide can't be beat. Make sure you break the Matrix 80 and 250 stones in by sharpening a less cherished knife or two to make sure there are no loose diamonds left after dressing. This is to avoid any stray scratches from sharpening. Also keep the swarf from building up as it will wear the bond, just like loose abrasives to dress. If the 650 doesn't leave a coarse enough edge then try the 250 with very light pressure. I consider the 650 the first in the Matrix lineup to start refining the edge so it may be too fine for what is considered coarse.
Diamond loaded strops are more aggressive than I think most of us expect, and they are great at leaving a foil burr when done. For anything much less than Maxamet I think you want to finish with something less abrasive. at 17:17 in the video I linked to is an image of the bevel after using a 5 micron diamond loaded leather strop that shows how well it cleaned up any previous scratches. To be honest, it was a mistake to use it, I should have started with 1 or 2 micron.

stonemedusa62 64, I first switched to edge trailing only after tracking down why the finest Matrix stones, mainly the 4000, were leaving random scratches in the bevel. Under the microscope some of the scratches started with a micro chip in the apex. I believe the edge leading pass would grab the apex, pull a chip out, and embed it in the resin which required dressing to remove. I never tried cleaning them any other way so can't say if a rust eraser or BKF would have worked. If I only used edge trailing passes I never saw this issue again, and noticed far fewer micro chips. I think this is more of an issue with diamonds because they are soooo much sharper than anything else. Later I found an article that ToddS wrote about edge trailing vs edge leading passes and said that the apex could be up to 10 times keener with edge trailing. The idea of using edge leading passes on plated diamond stones sends shivers down my spine. I will do a video on this subject explaining my opinion on this subject. I am almost done making some angled magnetic holders to hold my knife bevels perpendicular to the microscope to get more of the bevel in focus. I have been holding off on making more videos until I get this done hoping it will improve the microscope photos.
 
I can imagine that edge leading/trailing might be important as far as producing a mirror edge, but IMO it's not particularly relevant when it comes to producing sharp knives. An accomplished sharpener can produce a hair whittling edge using nothing but a fine DMT plate and couple strops, sharpening in both directions on the plate. For example:


And Alex's opinion on edge leading vs. edge trailing:

 
Strauss95 said:
For the Edge Pro/Hapstone/Tsprof users I was just wondering what stone you like to finish on for a coarse, "toothy" edge finish?
Click to expand...

Generally, the EdgePro diamond matrix stones are my go-to tools when working on my good knives. Once in a while I'll do it all with the 80 grit. The edge can be toothy and sharp, but 80 is just a little rough and not the best choice. Sometimes I'll shoot for a toothy edge with the 1100 grit, but that's about as fine as I can go and still get "toothy." Realistically, 250 and 650 are more of the "sweet spot." That's not to say I don't go for the super-refined edge, as well. It just depends on my mood.
 
The steel ...
I find it depends on the steel as to the grit .
Softer steels often respond to a more coarse edge , while your harder steels might respond to a more refined edge ..
The Spanner in the Works is that this is not always the case .. The type of steel & grain structure might have a say in things as well .
So for the Hobby 'ist sharpener who is prepared to experiment . They might find the sweet spot for Grit , especially if they are after every last possible slice !
But that one sweet spot , may only be sweet on one knife ! ( That's sharpening life for you )
 
Strauss95 said:
For the Edge Pro/Hapstone/Tsprof users I was just wondering what stone you like to finish on for a coarse, "toothy" edge finish?

When sharpening freehand I would typically finish on my DMT coarse or fine, or the Venev F240 or F400 if using resin bonded stones.
Click to expand...

My Venev F400 stones (in either CBN or Diamond) or Matrix 650 is currently some of my favorite toothy edges with a good bite on EDC knives.
 
Diemaker, I was already thinking that I could see that happening with coarse stones. For a working edge I'm not that worried about scratch pattern. I go upto f1200 on both sides n down to 400 on one side. It's this weird thing I saw in a video n seems to work good. I only do leading passes on the 1200 n 400. It'll shave fresh off the sharpener. I will strop with compound to bring it back when it gets dull. If I'm going for a polish I have a 25x loop to check the edge with as I progres. I can go upto a 30k cbn stone that I like more than a .5 strop/compound or similar lapping films. Before I start leadin only I try to make sure I debur on the last stone I went both ways with so f800ish. So I'll do a single leading "pass" on each side a couple times. With the convex adapter its more complicated than that but that's all I'm hitting the apex with. Do you know there was no bur getting torn off with the micro chips you saw? I was having problems with scratches from coarser grits but haven't noticed my f1200 leave deeper scratches. I've only done one polished edge since getting some cbn stones, but using them out of the box on the one I did turned out more better. What worries me about using a trailing edge is leaving a microscopic bur that's super sharp but will fold over going through chest hair. Your product looks great and I'm looking forward to more vids!

Another question for 777 edge. Do you have any experience with the 30k poltava cbn? Based on the chart alone and no experience with shapton, the cbn 15k is closer to equal to the shapton 30k and the cbn 30k should be finer? I got it off amazon and didn't realize it was coming from gritomatic until it was ordered. I saw it listed at the time but never saw it available on gritomatics website so always wondered how I got myself it. It took so long to get compared to a direct order that I think they had to make it and always wondered how bad I screwed them by finding it listed on amazon still. I keep talking about it. That will start a decent binge of looking for info on it so I know if it's this unicorn stone I think it is. Finer than 30k shapton, cbn and can cut any steel maybe even straight tungsten carbide. Should I be as stoked about this stone as I am?
 
Experimented with my S30V Bugout yesterday and the Matrix stones. Off the 250 followed by a bare leather strop I managed a BESS-C of 220 and it was nice and aggressive. I went back to the Edge Pro and hit it with the 650 followed by bare leather and got a BESS-C of 160. Still plenty of bite on the edge and that's where I stopped. Very impressed.
 
stonemedusa6264 said:
Another question for 777 edge. Do you have any experience with the 30k poltava cbn? Based on the chart alone and no experience with shapton, the cbn 15k is closer to equal to the shapton 30k and the cbn 30k should be finer?
Click to expand...

I have a full set of Poltava CBN metallic bond stones, up to the JIS 15000 grit stone. I don't have the 30k. I do definitely like the 15k, but honestly hardly ever use it unless I am experimenting with different steels to see how they take an edge and how stable it is. The 15K leaves a similar edge as the Venev F2000. For every day use on a knife, there is not much point in going this high in my opinion.

I had a Shapton 30k quite a few years ago for my straight razors, and I was not overly impressed with it.

Just for fun, about a year ago I finished a straight razor on my F2000 venev and shaved after bare leather stropping and the shave impressed me more than the Shapton 30k did.
 
So it is somewhat the unicorn I think it is. If I'm goin to 15k I'll use the 30k. There's a noticeable improvement between the two. It's rare that I polish something that much too. Maybe 1 out of 20 of my knives I sharpen. I normally keep one or two around that I've polished, only because I like the finish. Since I polished it I either use it until dull to see how it does and put a working edge on it. Or I don't want to use it cause I just polished it and know how it does that polished already. lol. But yea besides for being able to leave a mirror finish there's really no benefit. In theory they might push cut better or be a little more rust resistant, but I doubt either of these are that measurable if at all. I've seen some stuff on the push cutting but nothing besides for mentions of maybe more rust resistant. How often do you need to push cut a perfect half mil thick slice of tomato? I think it's agreeable when you take a knife that far it's more for aesthetics. Maybe a polished sushi knife for a professional cook but that's the only time I've heard of people needing a polished edge.
 
stonemedusa6264 said:
Not sure about the bess-c scale. I'm guessing they both shave?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The BESS-C is the value from the Edge on up sharpness tester, known as the "Bess tester". A brand new double edged razor blade scores between 150-200 BESS-C. I tested a new disposable razor blade on my machine and got 160 BESS-C.

I really struggle getting low numbers on the machine on low grit edges when freehand sharpening. Most of my freehand coarse edges score in the 250-300 range, and that's after a light stropping on 1 micron diamond following the coarse stone.

I have been working on my freehand sharpening for the past couple of months. Getting the Bess tester was the reason I dug my Edge Pro back out and ordered diamond stones for it so I could put it back into use. I feel like I'm "chasing the dragon" trying to get lower and lower numbers on the machine lol, but it has been helping me improve.
 
Strauss95 said:
Absolutely. A brand new double edged razor blade scores between 150-200 BESS-C. I tested a new disposable razor blade on my machine and got 160 BESS-C.
Click to expand...

Do you mean a utility razor blade? Typically a double edge razor (for shaving) blade scores around 50 or less. Feather DE blades score the best at around 30.
 
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