Top five stainless steels for wear resistance?

tokerblue said:
Heat treat also has a large part of how well a steel will perform. Edge angle also will play a big part. IMO, there isn't a clear cut answer to what you are looking for.
Click to expand...

Of course heat treat means a lot. The question pre-supposes that the heat treat are done correctly. Same with geometry, the question pre-supposes similar geometry. Basically we're trying to compare the maximal potential of these super steels when it comes to wear resistance, not the ability of the knifemaker or knife company to get or fail in getting that potential.

I mean, if someone were to come and answer that 440c heat treated correctly would outlast s90v improperly heat treated, that could very well be true. But it would be such a groan inducing answer because improperly heat treated steel wouldn't even be considered a data point that manufacturers would use to plot the characteristics of a certain steel. You wouldn't see graphs of 440c showing higher wear resistance than s90v with an asterisk on the graph saying that "when s90v is heat treated incorrectly." So let's continue forward assuming that people who will be listing super steels are listing them with the assumption that heat treat is optimal and edge geometry is similar so we can just focus on the specific characteristic of wear resistance for that steel.
 
Grapevine said:
Of course heat treat means a lot. The question pre-supposes that the heat treat are done correctly. Same with geometry, the question pre-supposes similar geometry. Basically we're trying to compare the maximal potential of these super steels when it comes to wear resistance, not the ability of the knifemaker or knife company to get or fail in getting that potential.

I mean, if someone were to come and answer that 440c heat treated correctly would outlast s90v improperly heat treated, that could very well be true. But it would be such a groan inducing answer because improperly heat treated steel wouldn't even be considered a data point that manufacturers would use to plot the characteristics of a certain steel. You wouldn't see graphs of 440c showing higher wear resistance than s90v with an asterisk on the graph saying that "when s90v is heat treated incorrectly." So let's continue forward assuming that people who will be listing super steels are listing them with the assumption that heat treat is optimal and edge geometry is similar so we can just focus on the specific characteristic of wear resistance for that steel.
Click to expand...


Yes, we are taking into count proper HT and tempering along with similar blade and edge geometry.

Otherwise we wouldn't really be comparing steels at all, that would be comparing knives, edge and blade geometry.

But even with all of that I serious doubt that 440C would even come close to S90V even with a sub-par HT as that would be a lot of alloy content difference to cover..
 
Ankerson said:
Actually it would be closer to S90V based on the alloy content, S125V is really in it's own league at full hardness in the 65 HRC range.

Likely the performance might be between S90V and S110V depending on actual HT and tempering.
Click to expand...

CPM MPL-1 has 46% alloying materials, compared to S125V's 33.5% and S90V is 24%.

Here is what Crucible said, "MPL-1 is very wear resistant. When heat treated to HRc 53, it has 1.5x the wear resistance of S90V at HRc 59. This goes to 2.2x when it is heat treated to HRc 67. Its impact strength, though, is 1/3rd S90V."

So at 67Hrc it's way above S90V as far as wear resistance. Granted, it has less Vanadium than S125V (around 3% less), but it can still achieve a stellar hardness (67Hrc max compared to S125V's 65-66 max), and has way more Cr (10% more), and a good bit more Carbon (0.5% more). It's difficult to play Fantasy Steel without actually testing MPL-1, but I would still put it up against S125V. Granted it's about as tough as glass so it's edge may go by way of chipping rather than rounding off.
 
Thanks everyone for the great feedback on s125v. That's long been my grail of stainless steels, but is so rare I was beginning to think it was just the stuff of myth and legend.
 
drichardson67 said:
I don't believe they do
Click to expand...

Agreed, though I think its still a great steel. ZDP/Cowry's biggest problem is M390/20CV/204P. The M390 class offers better wear resistance in most cases (though typical/mediocre production HT's may lessen the gap), better toughness, better stain resistance, and M390 class steel is still much easier to obtain. I'm not even sure ZDP is superior to S30V when S30V is run properly hard.

But ZDP is still fairly rare which boosts its cool factor. That and 3% Carbon is fairly rare air. But M390 type steels are gaining market share at a very fast rate and when they are run at 62Hrc or so, they become a monster of a steel, getting dangerously close to S90V wear resistance, with more toughness.
 
TriviaMonster said:
CPM MPL-1 has 46% alloying materials, compared to S125V's 33.5% and S90V is 24%.

Here is what Crucible said, "MPL-1 is very wear resistant. When heat treated to HRc 53, it has 1.5x the wear resistance of S90V at HRc 59. This goes to 2.2x when it is heat treated to HRc 67. Its impact strength, though, is 1/3rd S90V."

So at 67Hrc it's way above S90V as far as wear resistance. Granted, it has less Vanadium than S125V (around 3% less), but it can still achieve a stellar hardness (67Hrc max compared to S125V's 65-66 max), and has way more Cr (10% more), and a good bit more Carbon (0.5% more). It's difficult to play Fantasy Steel without actually testing MPL-1, but I would still put it up against S125V. Granted it's about as tough as glass so it's edge may go by way of chipping rather than rounding off.
Click to expand...


Percentage of alloy that develop carbides to aid wear resistance is what matters.... ;)

It won't be anywhere near S125V performance wise...
 
TriviaMonster said:
Agreed, though I think its still a great steel. ZDP/Cowry's biggest problem is M390/20CV/204P. The M390 class offers better wear resistance in most cases (though typical/mediocre production HT's may lessen the gap), better toughness, better stain resistance, and M390 class steel is still much easier to obtain. I'm not even sure ZDP is superior to S30V when S30V is run properly hard.

But ZDP is still fairly rare which boosts its cool factor. That and 3% Carbon is fairly rare air. But M390 type steels are gaining market share at a very fast rate and when they are run at 62Hrc or so, they become a monster of a steel, getting dangerously close to S90V wear resistance, with more toughness.
Click to expand...

I think you are correct in all of that. And that is quite the statement putting m390 close to s90v. But that is why I said at the beginning of this thread that I wouldn't shake a stick at the m390 class. Perhaps they are new enough, that maybe we're just really beginning to learn how to heat treat them.

I agree too on the zdp. When it first came out, I seem to remember that it was really hyped, but I would put it pretty close to s30v, s35vn, also in terms of overall strengths. It may be with its 20% chromium, that the greatest relative strength of zdp is its stain resistance.
 
ZDP's strength is that it can be hardened to HRC 67. The downside is prone to chipping.

drichardson67 said:
I think you are correct in all of that. And that is quite the statement putting m390 close to s90v. But that is why I said at the beginning of this thread that I wouldn't shake a stick at the m390 class. Perhaps they are new enough, that maybe we're just really beginning to learn how to heat treat them.

I agree too on the zdp. When it first came out, I seem to remember that it was really hyped, but I would put it pretty close to s30v, s35vn, also in terms of overall strengths. It may be with its 20% chromium, that the greatest relative strength of zdp is its stain resistance.
Click to expand...
 
drichardson67 said:
I think you are correct in all of that. And that is quite the statement putting m390 close to s90v. But that is why I said at the beginning of this thread that I wouldn't shake a stick at the m390 class. Perhaps they are new enough, that maybe we're just really beginning to learn how to heat treat them.

I agree too on the zdp. When it first came out, I seem to remember that it was really hyped, but I would put it pretty close to s30v, s35vn, also in terms of overall strengths. It may be with its 20% chromium, that the greatest relative strength of zdp is its stain resistance.
Click to expand...

ZDP-189 is actually pretty lousy in the stain resistance department. Too much of that 20% chromium isn't left as free chromium, which would prevent rust.

It seems that much of it is converted to carbide during the heat treat process, aiding wear resistance. My uneducated guess would be that there's just nothing else for that 3% carbon to act on in that steel, so most of the carbon gets converted at the high hardness levels that this steel winds up at.

M390 also has 20% chromium but is very corrosion resistant because, for whatever reason, a higher amount of that chromium remains free chromium after the heat treat. More alloy + less carbon & lower hardness = more free chromium maybe (yes, I'm baiting an educated response)?
 
flatface77 said:
ZDP-189 is actually pretty lousy in the stain resistance department. Too much of that 20% chromium isn't left as free chromium, which would prevent rust.

It seems that much of it is converted to carbide during the heat treat process, aiding wear resistance. My uneducated guess would be that there's just nothing else for that 3% carbon to act on in that steel, so most of the carbon gets converted at the high hardness levels that this steel winds up at.

M390 also has 20% chromium but is very corrosion resistant because, for whatever reason, a higher amount of that chromium remains free chromium after the heat treat. More alloy + less carbon & lower hardness = more free chromium maybe (yes, I'm baiting an educated response)?
Click to expand...

Man, this is a really interesting. Didn't realize that zdp had an issue with corrosion. Course, I haven't used it. I simply thought, naively, that the higher chromium content would somehow directly translate to higher corrosion resistance. So how would you compare the corrosion resistance of zdp to s110v? Which has nearly as much carbon (2.8%), but about 25% less Chromium? I basically live in the rain forest of W. Washington, and have had no complaints over s110v, which is my EDC, and is in the elements every day.


I want to understand why the difference. What determines how Chromium behaves; whether it remains free or forms into carbides. I would think that this 'drama' would be played out primarily in the process of carbide formation in the original manufacture, but I'm out of my depth here, clearly. But I'm very interested, out of pure curiosity, and because this would seem to go a long way in explaining the performance of any given steel: the mystery of free chromium, and the in's and out's of its orchestration.

Also, does all carbon end up as carbide? I guess that would be the goal..:o


Thanks Flatface77 for your though provoking contribution.

Hopefully we've adequately chummed the waters for a really smart fish.
 
Speaking as an owner of 3 ZDP-189 knives, I have yet to see corrosion issues. But I defer to the internet metallurgists for the hypotheticals.
 
drichardson67 said:
Man, this is a really interesting. Didn't realize that zdp had an issue with corrosion. Course, I haven't used it. I simply thought, naively, that the higher chromium content would somehow directly translate to higher corrosion resistance. So how would you compare the corrosion resistance of zdp to s110v? Which has nearly as much carbon (2.8%), but about 25% less Chromium? I basically live in the rain forest of W. Washington, and have had no complaints over s110v, which is my EDC, and is in the elements every day.


I want to understand why the difference. What determines how Chromium behaves; whether it remains free or forms into carbides. I would think that this 'drama' would be played out primarily in the process of carbide formation in the original manufacture, but I'm out of my depth here, clearly. But I'm very interested, out of pure curiosity, and because this would seem to go a long way in explaining the performance of any given steel: the mystery of free chromium, and the in's and out's of its orchestration.

Also, does all carbon end up as carbide? I guess that would be the goal..:o


Thanks Flatface77 for your though provoking contribution.

Hopefully we've adequately chummed the waters for a really smart fish.
Click to expand...


The amount of Chromium that is pulled into the matrix to form carbides will vary depending on the tempering process of the said steel.

ZDP-189 really isn't a stainless steel even though it has 20% Chromium because most of that Chromium is pulled into the matrix to form the wear resistant carbides leaving a low amount of free Chromium to aid in stain resistance.

That's the trade off that is made to get the high RC ranges that ZDP-189 is designed to be at (65-67 RC) and the good wear resistance from the Chromium carbides.

This will vary greatly depending on the steels and the HT and tempering processes that are done to meet the needs of how the steels are used.

Everything is a trade off with steels, to get one thing you have to give up something else so a balance has to be made to provide the best performance for the use of the steel.

Any more than that would be a very long discussion about information that is available from various sources of books and other assorted sources.

There aren't any set in stone 100% answers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top