TOPS DART Tactical v. Swamp Rat Camp Tramp

Trace Rinaldi said:
I MADE my name and reputation in the HARD USE arena, I DONT need Cliff to justify my work.
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Since you don't publish any test results on your website, a small review by mr. Stamp would impress me a lot more than the mere mentioning of some obscure "high speed operators in Europe" who are using the dart.

In fact, with all those knives "specially designed for special forces", "official seal knives", "finally available to the general public", etc... claims like that have become more of a joke than a sales pitch.
(I'm not saying you're lying, I don't doubt you have designed/made some knives being used in Europe)
 
stropper said:
Since you don't publish any test results on your website, a small review by mr. Stamp would impress me a lot more than the mere mentioning of some obscure "high speed operators in Europe" who are using the dart.

In fact, with all those knives "specially designed for special forces", "official seal knives", "finally available to the general public", etc... claims like that have become more of a joke than a sales pitch.
(I'm not saying you're lying, I don't doubt you have designed/made some knives being used in Europe)
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don't wanna sound mean, but if you get impressed by a cliff review then what the heck is wrong with you? it's good that cliff reviews stuff, but it's for HIMSELF. he doesn't get paid to review stuff. he's just kind enough to share the results of his testing.

yeah, all those military sales pitches DO sound phony. but when they come from the mouth of Mr Rinaldi, there's no need for the grain of salt.

PS: when are you taking orders again Trace? this YEAR?
 
Yeah, Trace those knives are really tempting me to open up my bank account.

Cliff's "torture testing" is fairly unrealistic in that you'll rarely have to slice up a car in your everyday travels, but it does manage to somewhat simulate the wear a knife will see over a year or two of heavy use, in about 5 minutes of knocking the knife into a cement block.

I'd sooner take a TR knife than a Busse of the same price, I like them better. :)

Anyway, want to give me a discount for a thorough review of one of your pieces, Trace? :D I'll tell people here I fought off Kodiak Bears with a Spook if the price is right ;)



Any more SRKW comments?

_z
 
z537z said:
Cliff's "torture testing" is fairly unrealistic in that you'll rarely have to slice up a car in your everyday travels, but it does manage to somewhat simulate the wear a knife will see over a year or two of heavy use, in about 5 minutes of knocking the knife into a cement block.

I'd sooner take a TR knife than a Busse of the same price, I like them better. :)



Any more SRKW comments?

_z
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A couple. Cliff Stamp aside, why won't any makers take Jerry up on his side by side LIVE test? Like at BLADE or SHOT?

He offered to go against Striders with the SR101 of Swamp Rat, the poor mans INFI. In fact, INFI was never mentioned, Just SR101. Takes big balls or supreme confidence to lay it out on the line like that.

No takers, yet. Makes me wonder. We aren't even talking the big boy here (INFI), but the little brother (SR-101).

If yer scairt, say you're scairt. If not, let's see a live side by side. Say at BLADE? There might be a few Rats there. LOL

Z, I don't blame you. Some of Trace's designs are just flat out beautiful. I've got nothing negative in that dept.

But, if we are talking strength/toughness, let's let the big boys play side by side. With an audience. Sounds like a plan to me.

Rob
 
Stropper, if you have any doubts about TOPS claims of qualified knife USERS go to http://www.topsknives.com/whatsnew/whatsnew.html and look at their profiles. Also look at the team photo's to see real people using real knives. These are not some NY models made up to look like "operators" as Dork Ops and other well known makers use, they are the real thing and don’t mind using their real names to back up TOPS claims. I have met a few of these individuals as they have returned from the real hell-holes of the world. No theory, either your knife works or it doesn't, no room for BS or worry about weather the warranty will cover this or not, it's life or death.

As for Cliff reviewing the DART, don't bother, in his post #21 he stated "D2 and S30V are not in the same league as differentially tempered SR101", so obviously he has already decided the outcome in favor of the "mystery steel" SR101. The DART is flat ground and designed as a real slicer, the tests Cliff does only shows one aspect of a knife, brute strength, not how well it will work in a real life field situation.

When I want to know what knife to use I ask someone who has been where I want to go and has real knowledge of what works best. If I want to know about Iraq I'll ask my brother or nephew who are there now. If I want to know about a good hunting knife I'll ask one of my guide friends who by the way uses a TOPS Cougar Claw everyday and reports to Mike about it's great performance. I'm not saying Cliff's reviews don’t have merit, but they do not give me the full picture of how a knife really performs in actual field use.
 
Not to say that makers' "teams" of testers do not, in fact, do good and honest work, but there is an issue with such testing -- "conflict of interest."

That is, again, not dishonesty, just the very human factor that if one reviews the work of a friend, comrade, or employer, there may (may) be a tendency to resolve all doubts in favor of that friend, comrade, or employer. The "interest," even if unconsciously, may weigh on the scale of judgment.

The problem, obviously, also exists when the tester is the maker or marketer of the product -- whatever that product might be.

(This is why, in part, Consumer's Union never accepts gifts of products
for testing and does not accept advertising. In contrast, read any gun or knife magazine. Testing? :barf: )

Nor do I deny that "outside" testers may (may) have their own issues.

Human affairs are full of instances where testing has not been disinterested.

(Beyond questions of interest, there can be competency, accuracy and relevancy questions.)
 
Allen242 said:
As for Cliff reviewing the DART, don't bother, in his post #21 he stated "D2 and S30V are not in the same league as differentially tempered SR101", so obviously he has already decided the outcome in favor of the "mystery steel" SR101.
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Note none of the makers actually challenged it either, well publically anyway, who cares about backdoor gossip. SR101 is a varient of 52100, differentially tempered low alloy tool steels like 52100 are *FAR* tougher and more ductile than uniform hardened D2 or S30V at ~60 HRC. If you actually believe otherwise, and can get a maker to actually support it I would like to see such a public statement, good luck finding one.

The DART is flat ground and designed as a real slicer, the tests Cliff does only shows one aspect of a knife, brute strength, not how well it will work in a real life field situation.
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Actually the work includes a lot more than that, actually read one of the reviews some times. They always contain sections which focus in on cutting ability purely.

I'm not saying Cliff's reviews don’t have merit, but they do not give me the full picture of how a knife really performs in actual field use.
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Pick a review in progress, read what has been done, suggest what would be informative to you.

z537z said:
Care to donate a Spook (I like the Tempest, too) for the cause?
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He doesn't need to, just needs to make a public statement of *guaranteed* superior performance and I would buy one.

Slaytanic said:
Hey Cliff, I'm not following Ya? You want to contact Ken Heafner to see if he approves of the kind of destructive testing list above?? I'm going to be donating one of my own Model#17's to use for this, I don't see any of this being an issue with him?? He said I break it! He'll replace it!
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I have worked with lots of makers, some of them react well to comparative reviews some do not. I have seen guarantees actually be revoked when knives get damaged, makers start saying things like "well I didn't mean obvious abuse and that was obvious abuse" or "I didn't mean some else just you and that guy is an idjit" and so on, I have seen makers and customers have a falling out becuase they had me review one of their knives. All I wanted to do here was let you know how he felt and then you can decide if you still want to see the work done.

In any case he has not responded to the emails, and if you still want to see it then I don't have any problem doing it, just let me know and I'll order the Swamp Rat. I can catch some of it on video if you want to see that as well. Don't expect anything upscale, it is like the Beverly Hillbillies, except my family is *WAY* uglier.

By the way if by your knives you mean you made it, then that is different. I assumed you meant a knife you own that he made.


-Cliff
 
Thomas, the "team of testers" reviews you refer to are not published because they were used in development of the design and performance testing of a particular design and yes may not always be objective. I think Sal said it best on another thread that in effect, Manufacturers use testing as a way of improving their product.

Cliff, I have read many of your tests and agree with most of the conclusions, however you must agree there is a pro-Busse slant in your reviews. Some people like Sal feel OK using your reviews others do not, that’s life. As to the contention of S30V vs. INFI etc, I’ll leave that to the experts who get meaning to their life by discussing such things ad nausea.

For me, if I'm looking at buying a hunting knife, I want to know, will it dress out three elk without needing sharpening? And yes, when I help some of the local guides that is my job. I gain a lot of knowledge about knife performance from doing the work myself. As a result of that experience and limited destructive testing for TOPS I feel I have the knowledge to help them improve their designs. However I do not feel it proper to publish my results as I usually only evaluate one portion of the knife's performance and most of the knives I use are prototypes or modified production models.

As for the "ultimate survival knife" and what if scenarios; If I was stranded in the Amazon Basin I would rather have a 12 year old native with a six dollar machete than a fully decked out "dude" with the best knife made. The same holds true in the Canadian wilds, give me Mors Kochanski and an old Mora knife any day!

I guess what I'm trying to say is I rely on people who have "been there and done that" more than someone who has only theorized about what it would be like. Most of us would be better off spending our money on educational books like Mors or Tom Browns, or buying Hoods Woods Video's than worrying about having the "ultimate" survival knife. That’s just my perspective, take it for what it's worth.
 
Allen242 said:
...however you must agree there is a pro-Busse slant in your reviews.
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Busse knives so some things well and other things not so well as illustrated in the reviews, they do what they are promoted as doing very well. Why fault me because he makes a solid knife.

Find someone who will guarantee better performance and I'll gladly run them against Busse at my cost, hell if you can find someone to make such a public statement Busse would probably gladly run them against his publically.

As for the "ultimate survival knife" and what if scenarios; If I was stranded in the Amazon Basin I would rather have a 12 year old native with a six dollar machete than a fully decked out "dude" with the best knife made.
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That is kind of a biased and useless comparison, it is not like you can buy 12 year old guides and pack them with you so you will have them in emergency conditions, unless of course the laws in the states are a lot different than they are here.

And why do the guys with the higher end knives always have to be inexperienced you create a situation to obviously favor your arguement, and then you accuse me of being biased.

Yes, I would rather have someone with me the summer who was an experienced axe man with a NIB Iltis than a novice with a high end custom felling axe. However if two guys were similar experienced and one had a really high performance axe and the other much lower end, well the choice is kind of obvious.

I know makers who make and sell knives in the tropics, they don't use cheap knives because they are the best. They often make knives out of mild steel or even Al and other metals because that is all that is available. One of them recently came over here and started working with better steels, he wasn't long in adapting to them.

Yes if you are experienced enough you can make due with little equipment and low grade supplies, why would you however force this on yourself. That is like throwing away equipment like sat. phones, compass, GPS units, space blankets and antibiotics because obviously 12 year old natives in the rain forest don't have them.

I doubt they carry a lot of TOPS knives either.

No amount of gear makes you able to do a task, it just makes it easier if you know how to do it and are familar with the tools. I can chop down a 6-8" tree with a small hatchet, it is however a lot easier with a decent felling axe, I know which one I will pick if both are on hand.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I'm not against quality knives and I own 2 Busse Knives, I have not said anything bad about them. You missed my point, a good knife with little knowledge will not get you as far as a poor knife with the appropriate knowledge for the area you are going. I did not say go buy a boy, but rater learn the things he knows if your going into that area.
 
Allen242 said:
You missed my point...
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No, you simply made up a point no one is arguing. Of course knowledge is extremely important and you can't just say, well I got a good knife, I guess I am set now.

You could have a great knife, which could easily have all the ability to chop and clear woods, try to build a shelter and get killed by a widowmaker within five minutes due to lack of experience felling trees.

The problem with your arguement it that it is biased, it assumes knowledge somehow excludes higher quality knives. It is not like buying better knives prevents you from becoming experienced.

Of course if you are in an area lost local guide would be very valuable, they would know the terrain and could even just walk you straight out. Even if this wasn't the case they would likely know edible plants, dangerous animals, local meds, water sources, etc. .

However it is not like if you gave them a high end knife they would suddenly forget it all.

-Cliff
 
Thats not an obscure referance Trace made, thats just all he is allowed to say. No BS, it is a security issue. His stuff was selected by one of the top counter terror ops units, he's just not allowed to say who, what, when, and where. So you can take it or leave it as it stands.

His stuff has already been reviewed and field tested by real reviewers and the results can be found in TacKnives and American Hand Gunner IIRC. There are possibly a few others. He has no need to send his hard work to the likes of Cliff Stamp.

Trace wasn't listed as one of the top 30 makers by Blade Magazine for nothing.
 
R.W.Clark said:
His stuff has already been reviewed and field tested by real reviewers and the results can be found in TacKnives and American Hand Gunner IIRC. There are possibly a few others. He has no need to send his hard work to the likes of Cliff Stamp.

Trace wasn't listed as one of the top 30 makers by Blade Magazine for nothing.
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Nothing against Trace, I love his work, but are any of his ads found in any of the same above mentioned magazines where the "real reviewers" have reviewed his knives? Where can I see a "video" (that's what you consider to be the hallmark of a true test, right?) of the unbiased testing, Mr. Clark? Nuff said! ;)
 
To be completely honest, I am unsure if Trace takes out adds or not. If so I have no clue which mags he puts them in. I am not his business manager :rolleyes:

I also said that photos were fine, not just video. In the reviews Trace got there we photos, so that is covered.
 
OK, one last attempt to get my point across; I would rather see a review from someone (man or boy) who actually used the knife (any knife) in the field, doing the same thing that I expect to do with my knife (skinning, carving, cutting, etc), than someone who has theorized how the knife would react in only the most severe of circumstances. Good day gentlemen, I should know better than to give my opinion here.
 
Considering that Trace is not taking orders, I don't think he needs hype to sell his knives. The demand for them is greater than the number he can make at this time.

3Guardsmen said:
Where can I see a "video" (that's what you consider to be the hallmark of a true test, right?) of the unbiased testing, Mr. Clark? Nuff said! ;)
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Ron Hood tested the Trace Rinaldi Armageddon in Woodsmaster Vol 12 (chopping a frozen elk leg bone) and also has a review here: http://www.survival.com/trace.htm
 
Totally forgot about that Ron Hood Video! What is it three strokes to go cut that frozen elk bone?
 
Benjamin Liu said:
Considering that Trace is not taking orders, I don't think he needs hype to sell his knives. The demand for them is greater than the number he can make at this time.
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I have no doubts about that at all, as Trace is an awesome Knifemaker and I like his work very much.


Benjamin Liu said:
Ron Hood tested the Trace Rinaldi Armageddon in Woodsmaster Vol 12 (chopping a frozen elk leg bone) and also has a review here: http://www.survival.com/trace.htm
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Thanks, Benjamin, that was an awesome review! :)
 
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