Touch-ups

[malaverdiere]

Hi everybody,

I know that many threads have this information here and there, but bear with me...

Short question: What low-cost options are left? (I'm highlighting that point - I know many people looooove their SharpMaker for touch-ups, but it is pricey)

Context:
I have kitchen (VG-10 and cheap stainless steels) and EDC (Victorinox stainless steel) knives that need touch-ups regularly. Like, every other day.

I still sharpen them with my trusty Lansky guided system, but the extra time needed make it a no-go for this purpose.

I saw many people mention stropping as a way to touch-up, but I haven't been too impressed by that. I use a balsa wood strop with green compound. It works great for deburring, and does help a little bit when touching up, but the benefit is small and it doesn't last long.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Use a less refined honing compound. Something like a black compound or make your own with reclaimed grit from a silicon carbide stone etc.

Waterstone mud can be smeared right on the edge of a cutting board. Other grease or oil based compounds can be smeared on a sheet of paper wrapped around a coarse stone. I touch up my kitchen and EDU knives often using this strategy and they turn out very good and for a long time.

Just be mindful of how high an angle you use. This method can take of steel at the edge and a bit from the cutting bevel back, but if you come at it too high is like a polishing grade stone and you won't really be able to correct obtuse angles.

This is an extreme example of a knife I neglected for several weeks.

Before, at 400 and 1000x :

After:

 

[malaverdiere]

Just to make sure I get you right - you're talking about the steel dust that accumulates on my hones and that I need to clean off with oil???

 

[HeavyHanded]

Just to make sure I get you right - you're talking about the steel dust that accumulates on my hones and that I need to clean off with oil???

Yeah, there's some metal filings in there and a good bit of abrasive bits knocked off the stone. More if its silicon carbide or waterstone. If its a ceramic or diamond hone there won't be much more than the metal, tho some abrasives do get mingled.

Backhoning on lapping film works well too, and finer grades of wet/dry. Stropping on paper over a stone (or Washboard if you have one ) gives me the best down-the-middle results of long term maintenance, low amount of convexing, and low or no burr formation.

On some of my knives I'll take to a waterstone for touchups - a softer grade works well for rougher edges as you can use a backhone pass and not worry much about burr formation. Most of the polishing grade stones work fine with a trailing pass as well, likewise with minimal burr formation.

Most just get stropped on compound on paper.

 

[cbwx34]

Hi everybody,

I know that many threads have this information here and there, but bear with me...

Short question: What low-cost options are left? (I'm highlighting that point - I know many people looooove their SharpMaker for touch-ups, but it is pricey)

Context:
I have kitchen (VG-10 and cheap stainless steels) and EDC (Victorinox stainless steel) knives that need touch-ups regularly. Like, every other day.

I still sharpen them with my trusty Lansky guided system, but the extra time needed make it a no-go for this purpose.

I saw many people mention stropping as a way to touch-up, but I haven't been too impressed by that. I use a balsa wood strop with green compound. It works great for deburring, and does help a little bit when touching up, but the benefit is small and it doesn't last long.

What about a "Lansky Turn Box"... Lansky's low cost version of a Sharpmaker.

Or, just get a decent ceramic rod (I like Idahone)... pretty easy to learn to use one for touch ups. (Just avoid the cheap ones... IME, they can be a bit rough).

 

[Wowbagger]

First off I don't have a Sharpmaker. Yet. I use the Edge Pro but not what you want obviously.
Second I don't consider a very good full size stone that costs $200 too pricy if it works really well. It will last me the rest of my life.
Makes the Sharpmaker look pretty affordable for a whole sharpening system.
I am fairly low income. I ride my bicycle to work so . . . since I do that I have just scads of money that I would other wise be giving to the auto insurance companies etc., etc., etc

so

With all that for your consideration
I have two recommendations besides the unspoken environmentally conscious one above:

• sharpen your Swiss Army knives to have shallow bevels . . . they will stay sharp much, much, much . . . much longer.

and finally to answer your question . . . yes we are finally arriving at that moment . . . I hope you are as excited as I am . . .

• Get one of these (the Spyderco Ultra Fine ceramic triangle rod) they can be had for between $11 and $18 if you watch for good prices.

I finally bought a second one. I carry one with me out into the world and have one safe at home. and if I ever get a Sharpmaker which certainly could happen, I will have these to use in it.

Seriously, once you have a really good bevel / sharpening job on your knife this rod will get you back to hair whittling, if you started out there from your guided system, unless you do some damage to the edge. And just recently I hit a staple with M4 and was able to get the corner of the rod into the bad spot and get that sharp again. Forget about taking a dull edge and bringing it back though. This stone will be best for an edge that is fairly sharp but stopped shaving, or an edge that is pretty much shave sharp and get it hair whittling again.

The advantage FOR ME over stropping is that it can realign an edge that is a bit rolled and wavy or some such and the strop is just too soft to do that sort of thing. I never strop unless you consider sharpening on a 12,000 Shapton stone stropping which I do. That is what I like.

 

[jpm2]

I recommend a diamond bench stone. Depending on size and grit, $15 - $50.
A few strokes on the diamond (depending on how dull), a few strokes on a strop (if you like), and you're done.
The fastest & easiest way I know.

 

[Dangerously]

I use ceramic for touch ups. Spyderco ceramic is great, but I'm sure you'd be fine just getting a ceramic rod from virtually anywhere, and a rod is cheaper than a full bench stone.

 

[jpm2]

Ceramic rods roll the edge even with feather touch, they just don't seem to cut. My least preferred sharpening/touchup tool.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi everybody,

I know that many threads have this information here and there, but bear with me...

Short question: What low-cost options are left? (I'm highlighting that point - I know many people looooove their SharpMaker for touch-ups, but it is pricey)

Context:
I have kitchen (VG-10 and cheap stainless steels) and EDC (Victorinox stainless steel) knives that need touch-ups regularly. Like, every other day.

I still sharpen them with my trusty Lansky guided system, but the extra time needed make it a no-go for this purpose.

I saw many people mention stropping as a way to touch-up, but I haven't been too impressed by that. I use a balsa wood strop with green compound. It works great for deburring, and does help a little bit when touching up, but the benefit is small and it doesn't last long.

Hi,
How sharp are the knives after you finish sharpening?
Can you push cut phonebook paper? newspaper? printer paper?
Shave hair in both directions (both sides of blade)?
How dull are the knives when you go to touch up?
Do they get used on ceramic plates? is the edge apex reflective?

Have you tried using one of your lansky stones freehand for touch up?
It should work better than the bottom of a coffee cup

I'm thinking either your blades are hitting plates and the edge is rolling over,
in which case a little "stropping" on a cup or another knife or ... ought to unroll it in a few strokes

Or you still have a burr and its just rolling over in use, in which case you need to cut it off with a stone, at elevated angle, with edge leading stroke

 

[Wowbagger]

I use ceramic for touch ups. Spyderco ceramic is great, but I'm sure you'd be fine just getting a ceramic rod from virtually anywhere, and a rod is cheaper than a full bench stone.

I agree with someone else here who said to be careful which rod you buy.
I can tell you these are awful. I was never able to produce any where close to a decent / remotely sharp edge with them. Singly or used as a a pair in this holder. The rods have imprecise ridges and imperfections and the Spyderco Ultra fines that I have are very consistently finished. Perhaps the surface finish is better at abrading as well.

In any case the Spydercos WORK and the round rods shown here are useless.



Another thing to know about the Spydercos for touch up is less is more. I use very light fairly short strokes and the edge is repaired. I don't have to use the full length and saw away at the edge. Just a little here a little there; where ever the edge is loosing its sharpness and we are done.

The suggestion of using a diamond plate and a strop is no doubt very effective but be aware your blade material could start to disappear at an alarming rate if you make this your daily touch up. Be sure to go really light.

 

[Wowbagger]

Ceramic rods roll the edge even with feather touch, they just don't seem to cut. My least preferred sharpening/touchup tool.

Probably getting too steep an angle. Also the flat of the Spydercos are there for this reason / spreads the force across the edge so doesn't "coin" the edge as much.

I use a jeweler's visor with fairly high magnification, get bright light and my point of view so I can see when I am just coming off the flat of the sharpening bevel onto the edge. I watch for "burr" rolling of the edge like a hawk and stop and switch sides if / when I start to see it (if you can feel it with your finger you have gone too far).

These ultra fine rods are not for everyone but they sure save metal and are the cheapest most effective touch up I have found. I stropped with yellow abrasive for years and years and years . . . daily at work for our knives. Fairly easy for everyone to learn.

Oh look there is one of those old strops now; leather on the right; maple with diamond in the middle. They work (best when used when the blade comes off a fresh sharpening job on stones). For touch ups give me the triangle Ultra Fine.



The ceramic is better if you are willing to watch what you are doing.

 

[Dangerously]

Well, then, Spyderco ceramics. Sorry to hear the cheaper brands aren't good, but I guess it shouldn't be a surprise.

Interestingly, the sharpmaker medium ceramic rods are the least flat of the ceramics I've purchased from Spyderco: both my double stuff and 8" benchstones are better finished without ridges or edges.

 

[malaverdiere]

Hi,
How sharp are the knives after you finish sharpening?
Can you push cut phonebook paper? newspaper? printer paper?
Shave hair in both directions (both sides of blade)?
How dull are the knives when you go to touch up?
Do they get used on ceramic plates? is the edge apex reflective?

Have you tried using one of your lansky stones freehand for touch up?
It should work better than the bottom of a coffee cup

I'm thinking either your blades are hitting plates and the edge is rolling over,
in which case a little "stropping" on a cup or another knife or ... ought to unroll it in a few strokes

Or you still have a burr and its just rolling over in use, in which case you need to cut it off with a stone, at elevated angle, with edge leading stroke

To be honest, Bucketstove, I'm not sure myself. I always have this feeling that I have a bit of burr left
I typically will sharpen using the coarse, then medium (280?) and sometimes fine (600), deburring after each step. Then I strop on balsa or leather with green compound and drive the edge through wood until I am satisfied with it or can't improve it.
Satisfied means that I feel no catching when I run the length of the blade through a fingernail, it will cut a loose hanging sheet of newspaper or phone book paper, will push cut the same paper and it cuts hair easily on my arm. One push cut test I like to do is cutting circles and S shapes on loose paper.
For that arm hair test, sometimes it works well on both sides, sometimes only one side will do a good job. Which is a clear sign that I'm still doing something wrong.

When I touch up, the state varies. They obviously don't cut hair anymore. I feel the same feeling as burr on both sides at various places (which I'm guessing is a rolled edge). Sometimes they still cut loosely hanging paper easily enough, sometimes they start tearing the paper.

[EDIT]
I tried the 1000 grit ceramic hone freehand on my swiss army knife blade. More like the other way around, actually. Tried to hold it horizontally and freehand the edge on it. Before that, it was able to cut envelope paper, but not push cut. I felt the blade catch a few spots, like when deburring. That being said, the cutting performance feels the same after.

 

[malaverdiere]

Wowbagger, you got some serious dedication. 'Attention to details' is now officially your middle name (if it wasn't already)!

Probably getting too steep an angle. Also the flat of the Spydercos are there for this reason / spreads the force across the edge so doesn't "coin" the edge as much.

I use a jeweler's visor with fairly high magnification, get bright light and my point of view so I can see when I am just coming off the flat of the sharpening bevel onto the edge. I watch for "burr" rolling of the edge like a hawk and stop and switch sides if / when I start to see it (if you can feel it with your finger you have gone too far).

These ultra fine rods are not for everyone but they sure save metal and are the cheapest most effective touch up I have found. I stropped with yellow abrasive for years and years and years . . . daily at work for our knives. Fairly easy for everyone to learn.

Oh look there is one of those old strops now; leather on the right; maple with diamond in the middle. They work (best when used when the blade comes off a fresh sharpening job on stones). For touch ups give me the triangle Ultra Fine.



The ceramic is better if you are willing to watch what you are doing.

 

[jpm2]

Probably getting too steep an angle. Also the flat of the Spydercos are there for this reason / spreads the force across the edge so doesn't "coin" the edge as much.

Me and ceramics have never got along and I'm sure it's just me. The only ones I've tried are rods, where the force is concentrated in a very small area.

 

[Wowbagger]

Attention to details' is now officially your middle name

that's a nice way to say it . . . I'll take it. Some use another "A" word. A couple of "a"s and an "L" .

Yah I enjoy this but I am still learning. Just when I think I really "know" I learn something to take me to the next level. Fun stuff.

the sharpmaker medium ceramic rods are the least flat of the ceramics I've purchased from Spyderco: both my double stuff and 8" benchstones are better finished without ridges or edges

I have heard, inadvertently, of problems with the other rods. As I said I don't have the set. I just decided to give the Ultra Fines a try and got lucky I guess. They seem very nicely made.

 

[bucketstove]

To be honest, Bucketstove, I'm not sure myself. I always have this feeling that I have a bit of burr left
I typically will sharpen using the coarse, then medium (280?) and sometimes fine (600), deburring after each step. Then I strop on balsa or leather with green compound and drive the edge through wood until I am satisfied with it or can't improve it.
Satisfied means that I feel no catching when I run the length of the blade through a fingernail, it will cut a loose hanging sheet of newspaper or phone book paper, will push cut the same paper and it cuts hair easily on my arm. One push cut test I like to do is cutting circles and S shapes on loose paper.
For that arm hair test, sometimes it works well on both sides, sometimes only one side will do a good job. Which is a clear sign that I'm still doing something wrong.

When I touch up, the state varies. They obviously don't cut hair anymore. I feel the same feeling as burr on both sides at various places (which I'm guessing is a rolled edge). Sometimes they still cut loosely hanging paper easily enough, sometimes they start tearing the paper.

[EDIT]
I tried the 1000 grit ceramic hone freehand on my swiss army knife blade. More like the other way around, actually. Tried to hold it horizontally and freehand the edge on it. Before that, it was able to cut envelope paper, but not push cut. I felt the blade catch a few spots, like when deburring. That being said, the cutting performance feels the same after.

Hi,
any idea of the real sharpening angles you're using (guesstimate)?

so how much cardboard do you cut in the kitchen? bones?

? have you tried deburring by
standing the burr up (1-2 edge trailing pass per side )
then doubling the angle and doing 1-2 edge leading pass per side to cut it off,
then going back to not-double angle and doing 1-10 passes per side ?

When only one side is shaving,
all you do is deburr one more time at double angle with 1-2 edge leading pass per side,
I do that sometimes up to five times when I raise big floppy burrs visible without magnification.


For touching ,
use at least 5 degrees higher than edge angle, because you want to make sure you're hitting the apex,
so try 20-22 angle , you can eyeball it freehand by starting at 90 and halving to 45 and again to ~20,
1-2 edge trailing pass (stropping motion) to unroll any rolls and align the edge
then 1-5 edge leading passes for some abrasion and a touch more alignment
the lansky fine 600 grit or ultra fine 1000 grit should work well for this purpose
just remember to use ultra light force, barely touching ...
if you put stone and then strop knife it should read 100 grams without any practice
and with some practice it should be easily under 50 grams
if no scale think like touching the pointy tip of a pencil or nail or pushpin with your fingertip, if you press too hard you're bleeding so just do your best to go light


The swiss army blade sounds like my first successful sharpening job
I cut so much junk mail that day

Try the procedure i've described above on the swiss army blade,
1-2 edge trailing passes to align the edge then 1-5 edge leading passes to get back to original sharpness
5-10 seconds and you're done
if it doesn't work give it another 5-10 seconds, otherwise coarser stone or sharpening is needed


The non-VG-10 should respond "well" to this treatment,
the VG-10 might chip
see article on burnishing

 

[hiwa]

I just bought another Fine Spyderco 2"by6" benchstone. I use this for touch-up maintenance as well as my strop with Flexcut Gold on it. Usually it's just the strop , but if the knife needs more I use the benchstone.
No need for the extra price of the "lapped" ultrafine they sell ,Imo. I find I get awesome edges from just the fine. I touch up my convex fixed blades in A2 and 3V with it and it works great without removing a lot off steel and pretty much any other knife. I freehand and I get better results than my Sharpmaker and faster.

 

[malaverdiere]

Thanks a lot bucketstove!

Hi,
any idea of the real sharpening angles you're using (guesstimate)?

Primary edge is 19-20 degrees, secondary edge is 10-15 degrees.

so how much cardboard do you cut in the kitchen? bones?

My EDU knife can cut about 7m of thin (cereal) cardboard, and 2-3m of thick (2 layers) cardboard before I need to push hard. I used all spots of the blade.
The kitchen knife is mostly used by my wife, so there isn't much I can say. But we don't deal much with bones.

? have you tried deburring by
standing the burr up (1-2 edge trailing pass per side )
then doubling the angle and doing 1-2 edge leading pass per side to cut it off,
then going back to not-double angle and doing 1-10 passes per side ?

When only one side is shaving,
all you do is deburr one more time at double angle with 1-2 edge leading pass per side,
I do that sometimes up to five times when I raise big floppy burrs visible without magnification.

Didn't get the chance to try that. I'm always reluctant to go beyond the angles that Lansky gives me, but I'll give it a shot later and update.

For touching ,
use at least 5 degrees higher than edge angle, because you want to make sure you're hitting the apex,
so try 20-22 angle , you can eyeball it freehand by starting at 90 and halving to 45 and again to ~20,
1-2 edge trailing pass (stropping motion) to unroll any rolls and align the edge
then 1-5 edge leading passes for some abrasion and a touch more alignment
the lansky fine 600 grit or ultra fine 1000 grit should work well for this purpose
just remember to use ultra light force, barely touching ...
if you put stone and then strop knife it should read 100 grams without any practice
and with some practice it should be easily under 50 grams
if no scale think like touching the pointy tip of a pencil or nail or pushpin with your fingertip, if you press too hard you're bleeding so just do your best to go light

I did that, but definitely not as light as you said. I'm not good with my hands - might as well say that I have 10 small anvils on my fingertips.

I'm putting more details here in case another n00b reads this later.

Basically - I closed one eye, aligned the blade edge up. Using the 1000 grit ceramic hone, I moved up and along the blade (edge trailing motion) to unroll the edge at around 20 degrees (aka whatever angle felt right - did I mention I suck at guesstimating angles too?). There was some 'catching'. I alternated sides until it was sliding smoothly. Then I moved down and along the blade (edge leading motion) at a slightly higher angle. There was a little bit of catching, but not much, and more resistance. I guess that means that I was abrading some metal away

Afterwards, I was able to slice cut loosely hanging phonebook paper, and to push-cut it with the grain (but not across the grain). That's a huuuuuge improvement. And I saved myself 20-30 minutes of sharpening.