Tough Damascus. Dama-Tough?

[Lesknife]

Can we make a tougher Damascus than the Japanese sword makers of old? I have seen examples of Damascus where the layers were so fine that they were almost imperceptible. So many tens of thousands of layers take away the delamination issue?

True Damascus was the super steel in its day. But today’s PM powdered steel is even finer grained than any Damascus/ pattern welded steel and the PM alloy is distributed consistently, homogeneously and free of contamination in a microscopic fine matrix. I don’t know how it could get any better/ finer blend.

Damascus or pattern welded steel is now mostly a decorative art.

 

[Arathol]

Can we make a tougher Damascus than the Japanese sword makers of old? I have seen examples of Damascus where the layers were so fine that they were almost imperceptible. So many tens of thousands of layers take away the delamination issue?

The traditional katana wasn't damascus. It was just folded steel. The Japanese process didn't produce sufficient heat to get good carbon distribution, and many impurities remained. Folding the steel over and over removed the impurities and more or less created a homogenous steel. Many were folded up to 20 times, which yielded over a million layers. Not damascus with alternating steel types, just many layers of steel from the same ingot. Delamination will happen if you don't get the impurities out, or if you don't get the heat right in the folding process, ie a cold shut in the blade. When done right its like any other weld, strong and secure.

 

[dirc]

great points, but also consider, it's decorative until its not...

like with the best of the japanese swords, only the outer layer had higher carbon % - thus more martensite, more hardness, but with that comes the brittleness
...but that negative is reduced greatly because its only the outer shell... since its only a thin layer, the actual structure is different internally...
the softer core with lower carbon was much tougher, and kept the thing from breaking in battles (again, that is why most machetes stick with 1070/1075 - easy to be tough below the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectoid)

differential quenching can also somewhat give these benefits, but delivered in a different form

.... does all of this really trace back to benefits possible in modern damascus?, ... (imho) not really, since they mostly diffuse carbon around in the process of making many layers and ensuring it won't delam -> you get a fairly homogenous new steel

so you're back to needing the right mix for the job
...
if you want super tough damascus, make sure you're under the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectoid with the average of the mix

ie -> 1075/15n20 is a great great choice (imho, the toughest most simple dama mix since they're both about 0.75% carbon)

vg10 type dama bases will be nowhere near as tough, nor will the exotic super high carbon pm steels

 

[shqxk]

True Damascus was the super steel in its day. But today’s PM powdered steel is even finer grained than any Damascus/ pattern welded steel and the PM alloy is distributed consistently, homogeneously and free of contamination in a microscopic fine matrix. I don’t know how it could get any better/ finer blend.

Damascus or pattern welded steel is now mostly a decorative art.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of PM technology since its not always has finer grain to conventional steel. PM is for smaller carbide thus you can put more alloy into the mix without causing problems. Simpler steel like AEB-L, 14c28n or even plain old W2 can have much finer grain size compared to any PM steel.

Damasucs quailty also rely on its parent steels... There are also high-end damasucs that made form steel like 3V/XHP, CPM154/3V etc. even Damasteel is made from RWL-34/PMC27 via PM process.

Damascus can be decorative art and high performance cutlery steel at the same time.

 

[elasmonut]

Pattern welded damascus will not improve any properties of the parent steels, in fact it usually detracts performance from one of them.
Folding and pattern welding was and still is a low tech method to save materials or control impurities and carbon content.
You are simply adding complexity where none is needed, if performance is your only goal. If you want it to look amazing and express skill and artistry through the medium of forged steel, then damascus has few peers.

 

[Lesknife]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of PM technology since its not always has finer grain to conventional steel. PM is for smaller carbide thus you can put more alloy into the mix without causing problems. Simpler steel like AEB-L, 14c28n or even plain old W2 can have much finer grain size compared to any PM steel.

Damasucs quailty also rely on its parent steels... There are also high-end damasucs that made form steel like 3V/XHP, CPM154/3V etc. even Damasteel is made from RWL-34/PMC27 via PM process.

Damascus can be decorative art and high performance cutlery steel at the same time.

I was referring to forged Damascus. But I was not aware of any pm process Damascus. That’s interesting.