Recommendation? Tough steel with good sharpness?

[1ace4e]

hahah okay guys, you are misreading me, the same as i misreaded ashesfall, lets just forget about what happened, and we can start again. I am interested in opinions, just wanted a bit more ''clear ones''

 

[1ace4e]

Check out Fredrik Haaksonsen's website. He uses A8(mod) quite a bit. He also likes Vanadis 4 Extra. His knives are extremely tough, and they hold an edge well, too. He says that knife edges often lose their sharpness because of a lack of toughness and strength -- caused by micro chips and dents -- not just a lack of wear resistance.

http://xxxknives.blogspot.com

Also click on the articles on the right side that link to his thoughts on A8(mod) and V4E.

How sharp knives get initially depend mostly on the skill of the sharpener. Either of these steels can get extremely sharp.

You might want to work with a knife maker on the forum here to noodle out the best mix of steel, heat treat and geometry that works for you.

Thanks a lot, didnt know about that, thats really interesting.

I will take a look!

 

[1ace4e]

You asked for opinions and then get bent when someone offers one? You weren't exactly clear in your first post about just HOW tough the steel has to be for your unlisted needs. So, just what are you planning on doing with this knife that would make properly heat-treated O1 curl up in the fetal position and cry for mommy? Are you saying that a Randall in O1 is going to fail you? Have you ever actually USED a knife? You do know that a knife is for cutting stuff, right, and not for pounding into a tree or a brick wall to use as a step. Ya gonna pry open a locked car door after chopping through a couple of inches of ice just to get to it?


Not that it matters, but I prefer 5160, or L6.... Hope you find what you're looking for, but I kinda doubt it.

ok

 

[1ace4e]

Depending on your price range ... my top recommendation would be a Carothers Performance Knife in his Delta 3V heat treat ...

Shannon Labs makes some great knives that check your boxes ...

Gollik another maker here uses Elmax fir some of his work ... it may not be quite the steel as the above mentioned but it's good ...

LT Wright would be where I would recommend you look if you want a knife today ... they have many models and offer some in 3V and some in AEB-L ... along with old standbys of A2 or 01 ... and they perform great IMHO ...

Fiddle back Forge has some knives that check most of your boxes also ...

And one last mention the Bradford Guardian 4.5" ... is a great knife ...

Thanks for the recommendations! I will take a look

 

[Currawong]

So I think you're saying you want a steel that is:
- edge retention: good
- sharpness: very good
- toughness: the most extreme steel in existence that can also meet the above two qualities.

If that's the case, the best steels for you are probably (1) cpm-3v with the famous delta heat treat, as made by Carothers Performance Knives (CPK), and (2) INFI as made by Busse Combat with the famous Busse heat treat, and occasionally by the associated family companies Scrap Yard and Swamp Rat.

Those two will be followed by A8 (mod) with a good heat treat, and CPM-3V with a good (but not delta) heat treat.

Behind those will be a bunch of steel that have equal or better toughness, but start to compromise (a little bit) on the first two criteria (edge retention or ability to go to super thin and sharp geometries without constantly warping). L6, S7, 1V, etc.

So really I think the simplest answer to what you're asking is get a CPK or Busse.

 

[Lapedog]

cpm 4v and m4 are way less tougher than the least of the ones i mentioned, cpm3v. not interested

There’s a reason these steels are dominating competition cutting sports.

 

[Lapedog]

But you’re not going to find a steel that is ultra tough with ultra high edge retention. So I recommended those because they have excellent balance in both edge retention and toughness.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Sk5
80crv2
1084

These are also excellent choices

 

[1ace4e]

So I think you're saying you want a steel that is:
- edge retention: good
- sharpness: very good
- toughness: the most extreme steel in existence that can also meet the above two qualities.

If that's the case, the best steels for you are probably (1) cpm-3v with the famous delta heat treat, as made by Carothers Performance Knives (CPK), and (2) INFI as made by Busse Combat with the famous Busse heat treat, and occasionally by the associated family companies Scrap Yard and Swamp Rat.

Those two will be followed by A8 (mod) with a good heat treat, and CPM-3V with a good (but not delta) heat treat.

Behind those will be a bunch of steel that have equal or better toughness, but start to compromise (a little bit) on the first two criteria (edge retention or ability to go to super thin and sharp geometries without constantly warping). L6, S7, 1V, etc.

So really I think the simplest answer to what you're asking is get a CPK or Busse.

wow you literally just literally got it right lol.

i searched about CPK cpm 3v delta heat treatment and i liked some models, thanks a lot for the recommendations, now im even more undecided than i was before lol.
between delta cpk cpm3v, busse infi and the ones people said before

 

[1ace4e]

But you’re not going to find a steel that is ultra tough with ultra high edge retention. So I recommended those because they have excellent balance in both edge retention and toughness.

thanks for the recommendation but i think cpm 3 will serve me better

 

[irons]

I'll throw s90v into the mix.

 

[Lapedog]

thanks for the recommendation but i think cpm 3 will serve me better

3v is tougher than m4 or 4v. They are all excellent steels.

3v is still not going to be as tough as some of the carbon steels recommended by other members above though.

 

[Currawong]

If you're looking at cpk or busse, check out some of the destruction tests:

Nathan Carother's (CPK) youtube channel.

Noss' destruction test videos. Scroll down to the Busse FBM and Basic 9 videos.

And this thread on bladeforums about the toughness of Busse knives

Also check out Shannon Steel Labs subforum here.

 

[1ace4e]

3v is tougher than m4 or 4v. They are all excellent steels.

3v is still not going to be as tough as some of the carbon steels recommended by other members above though.

I see, however i dont want to lose sharp ability and edge retention a lot.
Whats your opinion with this against the others mentioned, like INFI and A8(mod)

 

[unwisefool]

im even more undecided than i was before lol.
between delta cpk cpm3v, busse infi and the ones people said before

I'll make this super easy for you: get them both. That's what I did. Plus some Busse sr101 thrown in for a bit of fun.

 

[jbmonkey]

I read your post......1055, 1070, 1075...some of the steels you already listed.......good luck

 

[Lapedog]

I see, however i dont want to lose sharp ability and edge retention a lot.
Whats your opinion with this against the others mentioned, like INFI and A8(mod)

I have no experience with Infi but A8 is even tougher than 3v but 3v has better edge holding properties. Even tougher than A8 is 5160 or S7.

How big a chopper knife are you thinking of. I think unless you are making essentially a sword then 3v is probably right at the sweet spot you want between a very tough steel with decent edge retention. 3v is also semi-stainless so that is also a plus.

 

[Bigfattyt]

You keep mentioning level of sharpness. It has nothing to do with toughness or wear resistance or ease of sharpening.



Hardness and toughness are also not the same thing. In fact, they often move opposite of eachother. For a given steel, the higher you take the hardness during the heat treat, the lower the toughness may be for that steel. So for any given steel, there will be a range, and you can optimize for the use you intend, but it is not unlimited.

You can take two steels, from opposite ends of the spectrum as far as toughness goes, and get them both to hair whittling sharp. Exact the same grind, angle of bevels, thickness behind the edge, and a perfectly apexed edge at the same angles and grit for finishing. They would be equally sharp... how long they stay that way, and what kind of use would deform the edges would be different because of their composition, elements, amount and type of carbide, etc. Hardness is another number, but only part. Two different heat treat protocols can get you to the same hardness level, with vastly different performance characteristics.

I've owned and used 5160, 1080, 1095, 1060, etc etc (all the 10XX steels), 52100, SR101, INFIv(multiple versions and hardness of INFI), AEBL, 440c, 420HC, cpm154, Ats34, D2, A2, L6, 8Cr13MoV, San Mai VG1, AUS8a, Carbon V, 12C27 Sandvik, and many other steels.im not thinking about right now.

I can get them all sharp enough to whittle curls on free hanging hair. Even my big choppers, I keep at hair shaving sharpness. Every bit as sharp as my kitchen knives.

The kitchen knives are much thinner stock and typically thinner behind the edge. Often high dollar kitchen knives are run harder, and are much more prone to chipping, even in regular use. They are not choppers, because they are optimized for slicing, and often for very specialized tasks that makes them single use.

I keep My hunting knives, whittling knives, etc, all shaving sharp.


There is not one perfect steel. I like and recommend lots of steels.

You are asking for a tough steel with good edge retention. CPM3v is great. It is harder to sharpen than INFI, or 5160, or 52100, or 1095, or A2., etc. But it is not overly difficult to sharpen, or get a wicked edge on it.

Many of the higher wear resistance steels, af higher hardness will be more difficult to sharpen. Phill Wilson is an example. Very thin, high hardness slicers optimized to slice.

Bluntcut is doing Interesting things with. High hardness in many steels, and trying to get higher resistance to chipping, better performance in hard use, resisting deformation even in hardness levels that should make the steels brittle.


If you want a big, bad chopper, and are looking for toughness above all else look at Busse (and Swamprat, and Scrapyard). Some scrapyard models were released in Sr77, a modified shock steel used in jack hammer bits. You give up edge retention in abrasion/slicing tasks. But it is easy to sharpen. Their version of 52100 that they call SR101 fantastic for toughness, and holds a better edge for longer. INFI is eleven tougher. And has the bonus of stain resistance. I've owned about 13 models and done a good bit of hard use. I've done some stupid stuff with it. Including accidentally chopping a small river stone in half. I heard and felt it, and expected major damage. It wa very minor, and I was able to steel the edge for a minute on a hard chromed screw driver, and touch the edge with a stone. Shaving sharp again right where it hit the stone, in less than 5 minutes. I've done similar "oops" with laminated VG1 in a similar sided chopper and it took hours and hours to sharpen out the damage!! I've ruined a lot of nice edges in my time. Broken knives.

In the same or even less price range as Busse, look at Carothers knives choppers. Their CPM 3V with their custom heat treat protocol is going to give you all the toughness you need, even better edge retention, and will come with a better geometry for most tasks.

If I were buying a production chopper right now, Carothers would get my dollars. Hands down. They are producing some of fhebbeat bang for the buck high performance, very ergonomic choppers (and hunters, and medium sized camp knives. And I've owned more than a few Busse Choppers in IINFI, and Sr101 (I still have one monster chopper from them in SR101, a huge War Train Fusion). Busse ars Fun, (swamprat and scrapyard too). A lot of fun, tons and tons and tons of variety. New models constantly.

But I'm really liking CPM3V with high performance heat treat. Mine is from custom maker Ben Ben Tendick. Carothers uses their own optimized protocol.



For more money, I'd try to get a monster chopper from Dan Keffler. 3 or 4 time world cutting champ who makes wicked monster choppers and swords out of cpm3v using an optimized heat treat. But you are looking at a significant leap up in price.

I've been moving towards custom makers in various steels lately. And fun, cost effective Khukris from Himalayan Imports (which are using more basic steel from recycled springs off trucks, and one made out of a high carbon file.

So, I'm not a steel snob.

 

[1ace4e]

I have no experience with Infi but A8 is even tougher than 3v but 3v has better edge holding properties. Even tougher than A8 is 5160 or S7.

How big a chopper knife are you thinking of. I think unless you are making essentially a sword then 3v is probably right at the sweet spot you want between a very tough steel with decent edge retention. 3v is also semi-stainless so that is also a plus.

its on the post, not bigger than 25cm and i posted a picture of the design i desire

 

[1ace4e]

You keep mentioning level of sharpness. It has nothing to do with toughness or wear resistance or ease of sharpening.

You can take two steels, from opposite ends of the spectrum as far as toughness goes, and get them both to hair whittling sharp. Exact the same grind, angle of bevels, thickness behind the edge, and a perfectly apexed edge at the same angles and grit for finishing. They would be equally sharp... how long they stay that way, and what kind of use would deform the edges would be different because of their composition, elements, amount and type of carbide, etc. Hardness is another number, but only part. Two different heat treat protocols can get you to the same hardness level, with vastly different performance characteristics.

I've owned and used 5160, 1080, 1095, 1060, etc etc (all the 10XX steels), 52100, SR101, INFIv(multiple versions and hardness of INFI), AEBL, 440c, 420HC, cpm154, Ats34, D2, A2, 8Cr13MoV, San Mai VG1, AUS8a, Carbon V, 12C27 Sandvik, and many other steels.im not thinking about right now.

I can get them all sharp enough to whittle curls on free hanging hair.


There is not one perfect steel. I like and recommend lots of steels.

You are asking for a tough steel with good edge retention. CPM3v is great. It is harder to sharpen than INFI, or 5160, or 52100, or 1095, or A2., etc. But it is not overly difficult to sharpen, or get a wicked edge on it.

Many of the higher wear resistance steels, af higher hardness will be more difficult to sharpen.

Yes and i agree
I just wanted to show the caractheristics and specifications that i want on my blade, but anyways i dont want to make this long, i already have more than 10 steels to research lol so thank you for all. Now i need to look out more sellers...