Tough steels for thin blades

RX-79G said:
I don't know why you are getting so aggressive, but pointing out that there are problems with the conventional wisdom is not the same as having all the answers.
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You seem to be the only person suggesting simple carbon steels are tougher than properly heat treated 3V. There is nothing controversial about 3V toughness. You have posted incorrect information in several threads now, and argue against correct information. My response is harsh, but appropriate. You are misleading the newer guys who are trying to wrap their heads around the metallurgy and steel selection. Stop misleading people.
 
Willie71 said:
You seem to be the only person suggesting simple carbon steels are tougher than properly heat treated 3V. There is nothing controversial about 3V toughness. You have posted incorrect information in several threads now, and argue against correct information. My response is harsh, but appropriate. You are misleading the newer guys who are trying to wrap their heads around the metallurgy and steel selection. Stop misleading people.
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First, please stop with the ad hominem. If you have a problem with a factual statement I make, engage the validity of the statement. Attempting to invalidate ALL of my statements is just as misleading.

And I am not the "only one" implying that 3V is not as tough as some low alloy or even simple hypoeutectoid or eutectoid simple steels. I'm just the only one in this thread to do so. Here's a discussion about toughness and 3V:

http://www.hypefreeblades.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=850&sid=8a13589a5a6807f339a1720771014610


I would say that it is relatively unlikely that any high alloy steel like 3V would be among the toughest steels when every other tough steel is low alloy. S5 is barely over 4% alloy. However, all CPM steels are tougher than their non-CPM equivalents due to their grain control from the CPM process. It would be interesting to have a CPM 1075 or CPM L6 to compare apples to apples.
 
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RX-79G said:
First, please stop with the ad hominem. If you have a problem with a factual statement I make, engage the validity of the statement. Attempting to invalidate ALL of my statements is just as misleading.

And I am not the "only one" implying that 3V is not as tough as some low alloy or even simple hypoeutectoid or eutectoid simple steels. I'm just the only one in this thread to do so. Here's a discussion about toughness and 3V:

http://www.hypefreeblades.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=850&sid=8a13589a5a6807f339a1720771014610


I would say that it is relatively unlikely that any high alloy steel like 3V would be among the toughest steels when every other tough steel is low alloy. S5 is barely over 4% alloy. However, all CPM steels are tougher than their non-CPM equivalents due to their grain control from the CPM process. It would be interesting to have a CPM 1075 or CPM L6 to compare apples to apples.
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I didn't see anything in that link that shows simple steels being tougher than 3v. There was discussion that the charts can be misleading, as industry definitions of toughness differ from knife use, and that some of the charts are simply marketing. I never argued the charts were correct for knife applications. That said, the real world experience of 3v use with cryo, low temper, is that it is tougher than the simple steels. If you want to make the argument that 1065, tempered to Rc54 is tougher than 3v at Rc60, have at it, but that's an apples to oranges comparison. Vanadium does a great job pinning the grain boundaries, which promotes fine grain, and toughness. My experience is that nickel and vanadium do a great job of increasing toughness. 15n20, L6, 3v, all are quite tough. Chromium in small amounts increases toughness, aka 5160, 80crv2, 8670, and silicon is very good for toughness, ie 9260. Too much chromium, and we get the lack of toughness in stainless steels.
 
Willie71 said:
I didn't see anything in that link that shows simple steels being tougher than 3v. There was discussion that the charts can be misleading, as industry definitions of toughness differ from knife use, and that some of the charts are simply marketing. I never argued the charts were correct for knife applications. That said, the real world experience of 3v use with cryo, low temper, is that it is tougher than the simple steels. If you want to make the argument that 1065, tempered to Rc54 is tougher than 3v at Rc60, have at it, but that's an apples to oranges comparison.
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I'm not making that argument at all. You are confused. I asked this in the OP:
I'm also unsure how 1080 compares in toughness to "tough" steels like the S series or 5160 - I can never find definitive information about how a "pure" fine grained marstenite compares to shock alloys.
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Maybe the "incorrect information" you are reading in my posts is because you aren't really reading my posts?


You are also misreading what I even said about 3V, which was that it might not be as tough as people like to claim, because of the way it is marketed.

Please stop putting words in my mouth and then decrying them as false. If you would like to share some comparative Charpy tests, discuss the metallurgy of "toughness" in steel or suggest a reference that deals with these issues head on, that would be much more productive than what you have been doing.
 
How are simple steels defined? It's not as simple as it seems to say which is tougher. Crucible's data shows Champalloy, their L6, to be tougher than 3V at HRc 62, though the difference is very small. I haven't seen anything in this thread or the linked bfc thread that is misleading. However it's a bit more complicated than x steel is tougher than y steel.

A batch of CPM 10xx or L6 steel would be pretty pointless I think. CPM was developed to deal with carbides, which can be dealt with in those steels by heat treatment. CPM also helps with directional properties, but that can be dealt with in those steels by simpler methods also.
 
RX-79G, only you can ultimately decide what material is right for your perfect knife, and you'll never figure that out by looking at charts!
 
me2 said:
How are simple steels defined? It's not as simple as it seems to say which is tougher. Crucible's data shows Champalloy, their L6, to be tougher than 3V at HRc 62, though the difference is very small. I haven't seen anything in this thread or the linked bfc thread that is misleading. However it's a bit more complicated than x steel is tougher than y steel.

A batch of CPM 10xx or L6 steel would be pretty pointless I think. CPM was developed to deal with carbides, which can be dealt with in those steels by heat treatment. CPM also helps with directional properties, but that can be dealt with in those steels by simpler methods also.
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Agreed that toughness isn't simple. Charpy vs charpy notch will yield different results with different steels.

I assume that Willie was referring to the 10xx series or Hitachi white as "simple" steels, vs. low alloy steels like L6.
 
Mecha said:
RX-79G, only you can ultimately decide what material is right for your perfect knife, and you'll never figure that out by looking at charts!
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I'm the one who thinks the charts are a little deceptive. But I was rather hoping discussing the subject on this subforum with other knife makers would be useful and interesting. Even the best educated of us can learn something from reexamining what we are commonly told.
 
RX-79G said:
I'm the one who thinks the charts are a little deceptive. But I was rather hoping discussing the subject on this subforum with other knife makers would be useful and interesting. Even the best educated of us can learn something from reexamining what we are commonly told.
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Oh well in that case, to answer your original question, yes I think it's a good idea.
 
I would like to say that in my testing, 3V is the toughest steel i have ever used. Tougher than 80CRV2, tougher than 52100, and O1, and D2, and any stainless i have used. When heat treated properly it really is an incredible steel. I dont really look at charts too much, but i do know that peters heat treating does a great job with my knives. I would like to see a side by side test of these super tough steels, and what happens and who wins.
I still dont know what steel to get for my tomahawk prototype, i would love 3V but its expensive and is hard on belts. S7 is hard to find, i can get L6 from aldo at NJSB.

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