Traditional folder toughness and durability?

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Jan 25, 2000
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I hear a lot of discussion regarding the toughness or durability of traditional folding knives. I am curious as to what criteria others use to make this determination? I have always considered the Achilles heel of any folder to be the pivot, particularly the pivot pin. On looks alone one would judge a GEC #23 Pioneer to be vastly more robust than a #68 Pony Jack, but is that really the case?

Focusing on the pivot itself, does the #23 have a larger diameter pin than the #68? If so, is it large enough to compensate for the additional leverage afforded by the #23's substantially longer blade and handle? Or sufficient enough to make up for its nickel silver not being as strong as the steel pin found in the #68? Which knife over years of use is more likely to develope play as a result of honest use (not misuse)?

I would also be interested in hearing from those with substantial exposure to vintage knives on how they would judge the durability of the knives they have seen based on size, pattern and materials.

Of course for sheer ruggedness few can compete with the #46 Whaler, or can they?
 
Many have survived 100 years and blade play is not necessarily the deciding factor. If the tool is used for its intended use, cutting, they could last many more than that 100 years.
 
I hear a lot of discussion regarding the toughness or durability of traditional folding knives.

This discussion, where do you hear it?

I read every post in Traditional. And I don't hear any.

Those who know traditional knives have no doubt that they are plenty strong for the tasks for which they were designed.
 
Like others here, I have slipjoints from the 19th Century, which have clearly been used hard. They're still going strong and still get used.
 
I inherited my Grandfather's barlow. It is an old well used sucker! Still going strong. The blade had a bit of side to side wiggle. Easy to fix with a vice and a few light taps with a hammer.

Good as new.
 
Not many things can survive 100 years of being used an abused, traditional knives seem to the exception when they are used properly.
 
If a knife is used to cut things and given a tiny bit of routine maintenance it should last for a very, very long time.
 
This knife is 150? plus years old and has been used but not abused..the blade is nearly full.It has side to side play but zero vertically and a pull of 7-8..I have never oiled the pivot (but will do tomorrow!)....This knife would last another 100 years easily........Traditional = Tough.........................FES

 
I think there is WAY to much attention spent on talking about how strong knives are, how much abuse they can take, the coming apocalypse, and all the nonsense about when the SHTF, the zombie business, and batoning. So many everywhere these days seem to think that they need to be able to use their knife for their very survival. I have seen on other subforums here where guys say "I would stake my life in this knife" and statements of that nature. When would it come to that for 99.999% of us? When did staking your life or survival on one tool become so important to a society of urban office dwellers?

Speaking to the OP's post, a traditional knife is designed and intended to be used primarily as a cutting tool. You probably won't be able to cut your way out of a downed helicopter, cut bricks, pierce car hoods, baton knotty hardwoods or chop thorough hard ice to make an emergency igloo with a folder.

On the other hand, I have my grandfather's CASE large stockman, apparently bout 65 or so years old. He used that knife for everything, and man it shows. He hunted, fished, camped, and used it at work as his only folder, and most of the time the only knife he had with him.

I have my Dad's two blade Congress that he carried and used for bout 50 years as his favorite knife.

I have a CASE knife I bought new in '76 and carried that thing out on the job site for ten years as my only knife, and then off an on until now. The scales are fairly smooth and have gone from a very pretty dark wine color to a mottled brown. A couple of pin heads have fallen off some time ago, but that hasn't affected the knife.

All of those knives still have great snap (although a lot lighter than when purchased!) and have less gap in the joining surfaces than many new knives, even after years of each of them being used daily. The pins are all tight, there is minimum blade play (I do mean minimum) and I really admire how much work that trio has been through while staying in great shape for use.

Used as a knife (i.e. a cutting tool) with a minimum of other activity, a good traditional folding knife can be well used and still last generations.

Robert
 
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I don't think pivot size, a 23 GEC v 68 has anything to do with toughness or durability .It's 'simply' the quality of materials used, design and construction. Plenty of big slipjoint knives can be flimsy plenty of small ones really tight&strong.

What Robert writes above is really sound, a lot of drivel goes on about survival and knives. To what end?

Regards, Will
 
I stake my life on a folding knife every day but I am not some wilderness survival expert or black ops special forces type. I keep a one hand opener clipped to my right rear pocket and my traditional in my left front. I see no difference in strength between the slipjoint Mountain Man I carry and the Byrd Rescue knife. One has steel liners and one has brass. One has plastic handles and one has bone. The blades are about the same length and the Byrd's blade is a little thicker. The pivot pin on the Byrd might be a little thicker than on the Queen as well.

Most likely if the SHTF while I was fishing I would go for the one hand opener simply because it is more accessible (If I couldn't get to my deck knife.) I would not discount using my Queen if I could get it out and open fast enough or even my leatherman :D

I digress though...Comparing the two knives I use every day and have been for the last couple of years I can't see any difference in inherent strength either in material or design between the two. 90% of people on BFC aren't going to use their knives to do anything but cut fruit open letters or whittle a stick, and of the other 10%, a fraction of those are actually going to need the knife to save their hide, and I think when that time comes, they aren't going to be saying "I sure do wish I had that super duper tactical frame lock." They are just going to be happy to have a knife that will do the job.
 
{ Or sufficient enough to make up for its nickel silver not being as strong as the steel pin found in the #68? }

Most of the 23's have Brass Pins, a few have Steel Pins, but I don't know of any made with Nickel Silver Pins. Which models are those?
 
I'm going to an outlier on this.

I don't think it's valid to point to the surviving knives of old as a measure of their strength. Most of the knives made a 100 years ago are rotting in the ground. Those that survived were either particularly well made or saw an easy life.

It's impossible to say that a peened and polished joint on a standard slip joint is inherently strong design-wise. It doesn't stand up to lateral stress well, which is why it's a no-no to manually test for wobble when looking at knives at shows. Two exceptions to this might be the Sodbuster which typically has a much larger pivot and the Opinel which avoids the use of parallel slab scales with its round inner collar.

As an engineer I thinks more correct to say that usage and design need to be considered jointly. As a user, I tend to be in the Mors camp that knives are pry bars that work wood well. There are thing I do with my knives that really favor a fixed blade or a very tough folder.

I used to be a big fan of Buck lockbacks but have given up on them as their design is not compatible with my hard use. I've yet to wreck an Opinel and I use them harder.

My conclusion is that with most slipjoints, you need to constrain your use or you risk wrecking them. But there are tougher traditional folders like the Opinel which can take silly amounts of hard use. It's a different design and in this regard, better.
 
{ Or sufficient enough to make up for its nickel silver not being as strong as the steel pin found in the #68? }

Most of the 23's have Brass Pins, a few have Steel Pins, but I don't know of any made with Nickel Silver Pins. Which models are those?
:)

Bob, my mistake. I guess I figured pin material would be the same as the bolster material.

Good answers all. Sorry if my post came off as questioning the integrity of construction methods, that was not its intent. I was just curious as to whether there was a noticeable difference based on materials used, pattern or size. I basically have my answer, the answer being not to worry about it
 
Pinnah, how do you determine the sodbuster has a much larger pivot? I've not seen that, but I've not seen a lot either.

If anyone is worried about breaking a pivot, look here:
http://www.knives.mutantdiscovery.com/destruction.html


You have nothing to worry about. It's doubtful you could break a pivot if you tried. Lateral stress will of course pull apart a peened joint, that's inherent in their design.

All in all, it's at best a moot point. They're just knives. Tools. Ya know? Use them like they were meant to be used, and they will work fine until they are sharpened away. Have a dumb moment and pry with the tip, learn to use a reprofiled blade. Pry a bit and the blade doesn't break, repeen the pivot a bit with a hammer or a vise. The US was built with fixed blades, then built more with tens of thousands of men with slipjoints in their pockets. I highly doubt they worried about a 2 mm wobble in their main blade. They cut whatever needed to be cut, scraped whatever needed scraped, and did what needed to be done. Only recently has a 1mm blade wobble been cause to completely chastise a knife company publicly as indicative as evidence of their slipping QC, and how sad, they used to be so good, &c.

Look, you guys all know me. You know I'm learning to make these knives we all love so much. I've wondered about using a 3/16" screw pivot for a heavy duty knife, but honestly, what's the point? See the above paragraph. If you are concerned about the pivot, buy something else. I like frame and liner locks. I just chose to make slipjoints. Carry what works for you, but don't assume that slipjoints are weak.
 
However Pinnah, you were correct about the old slipjoints still around. It's called survivor bias in the stock market, but I assume it could be the same here. We see the 100 knives that made it, but not the 100,000 that didn't and falsely assume they were all awesome. Good point sir.
 
Pinnah, how do you determine the sodbuster has a much larger pivot? I've not seen that, but I've not seen a lot either.

If anyone is worried about breaking a pivot, look here:
http://www.knives.mutantdiscovery.com/destruction.html


You have nothing to worry about. It's doubtful you could break a pivot if you tried. Lateral stress will of course pull apart a peened joint, that's inherent in their design.

All in all, it's at best a moot point. They're just knives. Tools. Ya know? Use them like they were meant to be used, and they will work fine until they are sharpened away. Have a dumb moment and pry with the tip, learn to use a reprofiled blade. Pry a bit and the blade doesn't break, repeen the pivot a bit with a hammer or a vise. The US was built with fixed blades, then built more with tens of thousands of men with slipjoints in their pockets. I highly doubt they worried about a 2 mm wobble in their main blade. They cut whatever needed to be cut, scraped whatever needed scraped, and did what needed to be done. Only recently has a 1mm blade wobble been cause to completely chastise a knife company publicly as indicative as evidence of their slipping QC, and how sad, they used to be so good, &c.

Look, you guys all know me. You know I'm learning to make these knives we all love so much. I've wondered about using a 3/16" screw pivot for a heavy duty knife, but honestly, what's the point? See the above paragraph. If you are concerned about the pivot, buy something else. I like frame and liner locks. I just chose to make slipjoints. Carry what works for you, but don't assume that slipjoints are weak.

My sentiments exactly. A knife is a tool. Some people just prefer really pretty tools.
 
I don't think that under normal use, the tradition pocket knife gives up anything to the modern one hand knife. For a very long time, centuries in fact, the traditional pined construction pocket knife was the go-to knife for all kinds of people. From cowboys pushing a herd up the trail to sailors on square rigged ships, the simple slip joint was the knife. And when treated like a knife, and used as a knife, it lasted a lifetime. These people were hard working, to the extent that the modern suburban/urban commando could not begin to live that life. They were the original "hard Use" people. A freight wagon driver with a load going up the Santa Fe trail used his barlow or clasp knife like we would not believe. I've known several people who lived to a ripe old age using just one single pocket knife, and just taking care of it.

This modern knife thing is only a generation old now, starting back in the 1980's with a certain company and some outrageous advertising. Prior to that, people went down to the hardware store, and bought what was in stock and went on with their lives. Of course, they weren't knife nuts and obsessed over things that didn't make a whit of a difference. They just needed to cut something. In the army in the 1960's, the Buck 110 was the go-to knife. It cut well, was rugged, and was available at every PX. And if there is a group of people that would hard in their knife, it's young 20 something men in the service. Yet very few of the Buck's ever broke. They were knives and treated as such. Novel thought today. I myself never cared for the 110, being as heavy as it was, so I just used the heck out of a Buck 301 stockman for 25 years. Construction work in the engineers, and a career as a machinist later. I semi retired that knife and it was still good ot go. I just switched to the smaller 303 cadet.

I've led an active life, backpacking, canoe camping, motorcycle camping, used to hunt, still fish, and loved teaching the kids, and much later the grandkids how to make the perfect hot dog fork for roasting over a campfire. I've used a traditional pocket knife all my life, and never had one let me down, nor have I heard of any of my friends having theirs let them down. But then in all that time I've yet to be attacked by a car door. Chevy or Ford. Of course, there was one time a Dodge was giving me a hairy eyeball, but I just kept on walking. You know how hinky those Dodge's can be.

I now the modern knife is touted to be the most ultimate "Hard use" knife since Arthur pulled Excalliber out of the stone, but come on, really. How heavy use are you going to use a 3 or 4 inch blade for? Especially as much as most of those things cost? Go on any construction site and see what the real hard use knife is. It's a Stanley utility knife. Those hard working carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and masons are not using modern one hand folders, unless it's a metal framed Huskey they bought at Lowes along with a package of spare blades. Of course, looking at how ridiculously over built some of the modern folders are, I can see how, if you set out to badly abuse the tool, using it in ways a pocket knife was ever designed to be used, it can out last a traditional pinned construction pocket knife. But it's going to take that to make a difference. Out and out abuse. But in my life, I've never had to do battle with car doors, or hang weights on the handle of my knife while the blade was in a vise, to demonstrate how much the knife will take. I;ve yet to pry open a single car door.

However, I did have to crawl into an overturned car in January of 1991. A wreck took place right in front of me, and a nitwit driver rolled an old Datsun 210. It came to rest on it's roof, and a fire started when the battery that had broke loose during ithe rolling, shorted out agains the engine, and the years of grease and oil were burning. In my pocket was my old well worn Buck 301 stockman, and it did very well cutting the seat belt to let the idiot driver loose to crawl out of the burning car. No spring assisted, no flipper, no overly thick blade, just an old stockman. Crawling into the wreck, I had no problem digging into the pocket of my jeans, pull open the sheeps foot blade, and slice the seatbelt. I don't see how I could have been helped by a more "Hard Use" knife. I think I probably could have done the same thing with a Victorinox classic. Seat belts are not that hard to cut.

I think the over built thing is an evil that comes from a whole generation of young guys growing up with video games and not enough adult guidance in the real world of outdoor sports. With no father or uncle, or grandfather to learn from, they are suckers for the advertising of the knife companies selling to an artificially created market for an unneeded item, for the sake of profit. Generations of men used traditional pocket knives with no problems. They even delt with occasional emergencies and even a world war. I don't know how many issued scout knives and TL-29's were in pockets from the islands in the South Pacific to a Beach in Normandy. I knew one soldier who waded ashore that morning, and walked all the way to Germany with a Camillus TL-29 in his pocket. It was his only knife, aside from the bayonet for his M1. He used that knife long after the war was over, and only retired it when I brought home a brand new one from our company supply room. Uncle Charlie loved the TL-29. He wasn't a knife nut, but he like to garden and tinker, and he used his knife something everyday, in his basement shop or garden out back. His issue TL-29 had about 30 years use on it, and his older boy, my cousin Dave has his knife today. It's in fine shape. Used but not abused. Uncle Charlie appreciated a fine tool, and he never used the Camilllus as a pry bar or any other tool but a cutting tool. I don't ever recall him having to fight off a car door either.

Used right, a traditional pocket knife should last as long or longer than a modern knife. With the thinner blades it will defiantly cut better. JUst don't get in any fights with stray cars.

Carl.
 
I don't think that under normal use, the tradition pocket knife gives up anything to the modern one hand knife. For a very long time, centuries in fact, the traditional pined construction pocket knife was the go-to knife for all kinds of people. From cowboys pushing a herd up the trail to sailors on square rigged ships, the simple slip joint was the knife. And when treated like a knife, and used as a knife, it lasted a lifetime. These people were hard working, to the extent that the modern suburban/urban commando could not begin to live that life. They were the original "hard Use" people. A freight wagon driver with a load going up the Santa Fe trail used his barlow or clasp knife like we would not believe. I've known several people who lived to a ripe old age using just one single pocket knife, and just taking care of it.

This modern knife thing is only a generation old now, starting back in the 1980's with a certain company and some outrageous advertising. Prior to that, people went down to the hardware store, and bought what was in stock and went on with their lives. Of course, they weren't knife nuts and obsessed over things that didn't make a whit of a difference. They just needed to cut something. In the army in the 1960's, the Buck 110 was the go-to knife. It cut well, was rugged, and was available at every PX. And if there is a group of people that would hard in their knife, it's young 20 something men in the service. Yet very few of the Buck's ever broke. They were knives and treated as such. Novel thought today. I myself never cared for the 110, being as heavy as it was, so I just used the heck out of a Buck 301 stockman for 25 years. Construction work in the engineers, and a career as a machinist later. I semi retired that knife and it was still good ot go. I just switched to the smaller 303 cadet.

I've led an active life, backpacking, canoe camping, motorcycle camping, used to hunt, still fish, and loved teaching the kids, and much later the grandkids how to make the perfect hot dog fork for roasting over a campfire. I've used a traditional pocket knife all my life, and never had one let me down, nor have I heard of any of my friends having theirs let them down. But then in all that time I've yet to be attacked by a car door. Chevy or Ford. Of course, there was one time a Dodge was giving me a hairy eyeball, but I just kept on walking. You know how hinky those Dodge's can be.

I now the modern knife is touted to be the most ultimate "Hard use" knife since Arthur pulled Excalliber out of the stone, but come on, really. How heavy use are you going to use a 3 or 4 inch blade for? Especially as much as most of those things cost? Go on any construction site and see what the real hard use knife is. It's a Stanley utility knife. Those hard working carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and masons are not using modern one hand folders, unless it's a metal framed Huskey they bought at Lowes along with a package of spare blades. Of course, looking at how ridiculously over built some of the modern folders are, I can see how, if you set out to badly abuse the tool, using it in ways a pocket knife was ever designed to be used, it can out last a traditional pinned construction pocket knife. But it's going to take that to make a difference. Out and out abuse. But in my life, I've never had to do battle with car doors, or hang weights on the handle of my knife while the blade was in a vise, to demonstrate how much the knife will take. I;ve yet to pry open a single car door.

However, I did have to crawl into an overturned car in January of 1991. A wreck took place right in front of me, and a nitwit driver rolled an old Datsun 210. It came to rest on it's roof, and a fire started when the battery that had broke loose during ithe rolling, shorted out agains the engine, and the years of grease and oil were burning. In my pocket was my old well worn Buck 301 stockman, and it did very well cutting the seat belt to let the idiot driver loose to crawl out of the burning car. No spring assisted, no flipper, no overly thick blade, just an old stockman. Crawling into the wreck, I had no problem digging into the pocket of my jeans, pull open the sheeps foot blade, and slice the seatbelt. I don't see how I could have been helped by a more "Hard Use" knife. I think I probably could have done the same thing with a Victorinox classic. Seat belts are not that hard to cut.

I think the over built thing is an evil that comes from a whole generation of young guys growing up with video games and not enough adult guidance in the real world of outdoor sports. With no father or uncle, or grandfather to learn from, they are suckers for the advertising of the knife companies selling to an artificially created market for an unneeded item, for the sake of profit. Generations of men used traditional pocket knives with no problems. They even delt with occasional emergencies and even a world war. I don't know how many issued scout knives and TL-29's were in pockets from the islands in the South Pacific to a Beach in Normandy. I knew one soldier who waded ashore that morning, and walked all the way to Germany with a Camillus TL-29 in his pocket. It was his only knife, aside from the bayonet for his M1. He used that knife long after the war was over, and only retired it when I brought home a brand new one from our company supply room. Uncle Charlie loved the TL-29. He wasn't a knife nut, but he like to garden and tinker, and he used his knife something everyday, in his basement shop or garden out back. His issue TL-29 had about 30 years use on it, and his older boy, my cousin Dave has his knife today. It's in fine shape. Used but not abused. Uncle Charlie appreciated a fine tool, and he never used the Camilllus as a pry bar or any other tool but a cutting tool. I don't ever recall him having to fight off a car door either.

Used right, a traditional pocket knife should last as long or longer than a modern knife. With the thinner blades it will defiantly cut better. JUst don't get in any fights with stray cars.

Carl.
I cant vouch much for how strong they are, because I keep drifting in and out of traditionals.
But I DID use a Case Sodbuster JR exclusively for about 3-4 months.
I used it hard. as a knife.
It obviously held up great, aside from some slight bladeplay.

Well said Jackknife. You made some good points.
 
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