Traditional folder toughness and durability?

I have over 32 years in the Commercial Construction Trades. Never owned a Stanley Knife or any derivitant there-of. Neither did most of my co-workers. I started out with a small Tree Brand Pen Knife, don't recall exactly which model. Then I carried a Case Canoe Knife for at least 20 years. The last few years was a GEC 48 Trapper in either Red Jigged Bone or Burnt Stag or a Farm&Field two blade 47 in NifeBtite.
And also,in my area, is a whole generation of young men and women bein taught how to use and care for a Traditional Pocket Knife. Just like their Father carried, and his Father before him. Or that their Mother is carryin now. All the Traditional knives being manufactured today are goin somewhere! There aren't THAT many Old Farts!
 
Just like Frank, I don't hear much talk about traditionals and toughness or durability...but let's talk anyway ;)

I think both issues are hugely overestimated features in a knife.
Do I need my knife to chop ice to help Robert build his emergency igloo? I don't.
Do I wish for any of my knives to last 100 years of use? Not at all.
Nonetheless, I think that a good quality knife (traditional or not), if properly used and maintained, will cut everything I need to cut and last longer than I'll be willing to use it. And that's all I need to know about the subject, assuming I have a good quality knife in my pocket, which I have :)
Everything else is about patterns, frames, blades, steel, handle materials, and such silly topics that we love so much :D

Fausto
:cool:
 
Interesting discussion, about the only time any of my traditionals feel a bit of pain may be when they need some sharpening or the edge is too thick to adequately perform, otherwise, when a knife is sharp, say like an Opinel, not what you'd consider overly tough ;) but the blade geometry has an important part in how much effort it takes to do the task presented to the edge, so, keep em' sharp guys and you knife makers out there, keep em' thin to win :)

G2
 
Like Fausto I don't care if my knife lasts 100 years. I don't even mind if it only lasts 10-15 years. That just means that I have a reason to buy a new knife. :D

- Christian
 
I've known several people who lived to a ripe old age using just one single pocket knife, and just taking care of it.

Among my amigos, I am known as the guy to "take care and fix up a knife". I love old tradtionals, and the better back story it has the more I enjoy working on the knife. I completely agree that they will last a lifetime or more with just a bit of care. I recently cleaned up and sharpened a tiny CASE knife (about the size of a Buck 305) for a friend of mine that his Dad gave him over 55 years ago. This is a tiny knife, but has been used well but not cared for all that well. Still, it came out great.

Likewise, another brought me his father's CASE medium folder for the same treatment. His Dad (now mid 80s) can't recollect when he bought it, but it was old when his Dad gave it to him about 40 years ago. Rust and pitting removed the markings or I could have gone to the CASE chart and found a good guess, but that wasn't possible with that knife.

When I get one of these old family jewels, I remove the obvious rust, but no pits or staining, and never is there any polishing of any type. I oil and work the pivots, clean the gunk out of the case and put an edge on them and that is it. In both cases mentioned above, both knives are back in the hands of their owners. They were thrilled, and the fella with the tiny CASE carries that knife every day now. He feels that even as fragile as that little knife is, he will get another 50 out of it at this rate. My point is that used as cutting tools and matched to the task the "old timey" patterns are quite strong and will stand the test of time and work, even in the pixie sizes.

I've used a traditional pocket knife all my life, and never had one let me down, nor have I heard of any of my friends having theirs let them down. But then in all that time I've yet to be attacked by a car door. Chevy or Ford. Of course, there was one time a Dodge was giving me a hairy eyeball, but I just kept on walking. You know how hinky those Dodge's can be.

OK, you owe me a box of paper towels for all the coffee that spurted out when I read that! That was hilarious, and dead spot on!


Go on any construction site and see what the real hard use knife is. It's a Stanley utility knife. Those hard working carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and masons are not using modern one hand folders, unless it's a metal framed Huskey they bought at Lowes along with a package of spare blades.

And again, spot on. When I cut sheetrock, shingles, insulation, felt paper, roll roofing, open large cardboard containers (think kitchen cabinets and stove, refrigerators, etc.) and on an on... I always use my utility knife. It is simply the right tool for the job, with small, thin blades that slice like crazy. With a new blade in the handle you can trim moldings, slice away electrical wire sheathing, and even sharpen your carpenter's pencil.

NEVER, EVER, not once, have I ever seen a real working man carry or use one of those $250 sharpened prybars out on a job as an EDC. They have their place no doubt, but it is most likely that place is in the hands (or desk drawer) of someone that is waiting for the impending government takeover, one that subscribes to "The Omega Man" syndrome, or actually thinks "The Walking Dead" is based on a real life story. Heck, who knows... one of those guys might be trapped with the only other living being, a female of course, and be called upon to repopulate the Earth! That would certainly complete the fantasy.

Used right, a traditional pocket knife should last as long or longer than a modern knife. With the thinner blades it will defiantly cut better. JUst don't get in any fights with stray cars.

Carl.

As always, sage advice. But for me, I am now going to keep a better eye on the Dodge products. I wasn't sure, but your post now confirms the reason for my feelings of unease when I am around them...

:D:eek:

Robert
 
I figure that I won't be able to wear out a single blade on a single knife I own in the years left to me with the limited amount of use I put a knife through. And if I do, well I have a few ;) more that I can fall back on.
 
I'm going to an outlier on this.

I don't think it's valid to point to the surviving knives of old as a measure of their strength. Most of the knives made a 100 years ago are rotting in the ground. Those that survived were either particularly well made or saw an easy life.

It's impossible to say that a peened and polished joint on a standard slip joint is inherently strong design-wise. It doesn't stand up to lateral stress well, which is why it's a no-no to manually test for wobble when looking at knives at shows. Two exceptions to this might be the Sodbuster which typically has a much larger pivot and the Opinel which avoids the use of parallel slab scales with its round inner collar.

As an engineer I thinks more correct to say that usage and design need to be considered jointly. As a user, I tend to be in the Mors camp that knives are pry bars that work wood well. There are thing I do with my knives that really favor a fixed blade or a very tough folder.

I used to be a big fan of Buck lockbacks but have given up on them as their design is not compatible with my hard use. I've yet to wreck an Opinel and I use them harder.

My conclusion is that with most slipjoints, you need to constrain your use or you risk wrecking them. But there are tougher traditional folders like the Opinel which can take silly amounts of hard use. It's a different design and in this regard, better.

Absolutely right. Back in their heyday Remington determined that a typical pocket khife had a life expectancy of about 3 years. Remington was a prolific maker, churning out millions of knives every year. Today they are seen as collector pieces and good ones are usually few and far between. A hundred years ago the pocket knife was a tool, nothing more. There were no shiny high end knives made to suit the tastes of collectors, and very few were kept oiled, waxed and spotless. Most folks had just one or two pocket knives, not a whole drawer full in the safe. They got used, and when they got used they wore out or broke, then you got youself another one.
 
I'm all for traditional knives but the anti-modern knives talk gets pretty old too.

In the trades I have seen 9 out of 10 times a box cutter OR specialty trade specific knives and tools are far superior to ANY pocket knife. Traditional or modern. Also, 9 out of 10 times guys in trades do not have the tools OR know how to get a knife even close to as sharp as the disposable blades. I have had old timers in trades LOVE me for teaching them how to sharpen their tools correctly and without a burr for an actual durable edge.


Kevin
 
{NEVER, EVER, not once, have I ever seen a real working man carry or use one of those $250 sharpened prybars out on a job as an EDC. They have their place no doubt, but it is most likely that place is in the hands (or desk drawer) of someone that is waiting for the impending government takeover, one that subscribes to "The Omega Man" syndrome, or actually thinks "The Walking Dead" is based on a real life story. Heck, who knows... one of those guys might be trapped with the only other living being, a female of course, and be called upon to repopulate the Earth! That would certainly complete the fantasy.}

I don't understand the need for negative generalizations about people you don't know who might think a little differently than yourself?
 
{NEVER, EVER, not once, have I ever seen a real working man carry or use one of those $250 sharpened prybars out on a job as an EDC. They have their place no doubt, but it is most likely that place is in the hands (or desk drawer) of someone that is waiting for the impending government takeover, one that subscribes to "The Omega Man" syndrome, or actually thinks "The Walking Dead" is based on a real life story. Heck, who knows... one of those guys might be trapped with the only other living being, a female of course, and be called upon to repopulate the Earth! That would certainly complete the fantasy.}

I don't understand the need for negative generalizations about people you don't know who might think a little differently than yourself?

Aye but its good reading, isn't it. C'mon admit it, it made you laugh. :)
 
Discuss the topic. Not each other.
 
{NEVER, EVER, not once, have I ever seen a real working man carry or use one of those $250 sharpened prybars out on a job as an EDC. They have their place no doubt, but it is most likely that place is in the hands (or desk drawer) of someone that is waiting for the impending government takeover, one that subscribes to "The Omega Man" syndrome, or actually thinks "The Walking Dead" is based on a real life story. Heck, who knows... one of those guys might be trapped with the only other living being, a female of course, and be called upon to repopulate the Earth! That would certainly complete the fantasy.}

I don't understand the need for negative generalizations about people you don't know who might think a little differently than yourself?

I am probably less politically correct than I should be from time to time and forget the need to be sensitive to everyone and their feelings as I need to be. Been out on the job all week with my guys for a full week of 10 hour days in the South Texas heat of 103 - 105 degree days, working in the sun. It may have scrambled some brain cells.

The way we take our minds off the heat and the difficulty of the job is to kid each other from time time. We don't take it seriously, even when it gets a bit sarcastic. But we do engage in global statements when kidding, insensitive to the feelings of others, present or not, maybe not even in our city or state that might be incorrectly stereotyped (although teasingly) for the fun of small giggle or outright laugh. I think I may have carried that devil-may-care communication style over to the forum without thinking.

The hyperbole of my statements seemed apparent to me, but missed the mark with you. Even though you claim no group or affiliation so I don't know if I hurt your feelings in particular, I would like to extend my apology to you if I did so. If you are speaking as the voice for those unrecognized, but no less important, folks across the world that aren't represented here, please extend my apologies to them as well.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.

But most importantly, the point I was trying to make in my own clumsy way was that I never see these "hard use" or larger modern knives in a working environment. I just don't. Maybe it is a location thing of some sort, but no one carries them on the job site, the guys I hunt with don't carry them, and only one or two of my camping buddies carry them when out.

I don't get them, but since they are enormously popular now, someone sure does. They sure seem to dominate the knife market on all levels these days. But for someone that grew up with carbon bladed thin edged slicers and never felt under gunned, it is really difficult for me to see their utility value as a tool.

Robert
 
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I'm all for traditional knives but the anti-modern knives talk gets pretty old too.

Agreed. I don't know if it's resentment because of the impact modern folders have had on all knives due to their negative portrayal in television and the movies, but it seems that a few traditionalists feel a continual need to tout the superiority of slipjoints. I don't understand it, we live in an open, wealthy, cosmopolitan society. People aren't limited in their options, and if slipjoints are truly the best then people will choose them.

Besides I'm glad to see people carry a knife, any knife, whether it's a slipjoint, modern folder, or fixed blade. It means that person understands the utility of a knife, and won't freak out if I need to use mine.

- Christian
 
No argument here. I simply was expressing my wondering what negative stereotypical generalizations had to do with "Traditional Folder Toughness and Durability".
I carried a Case Canoe Knife to work every day for at least 20 years. I worked as a Commercial Construction Brick Mason for over 32 years. Never owned a Stanley Knife. That Case Knife was Tough and Durable!
 
Agreed. I don't know if it's resentment because of the impact modern folders have had on all knives due to their negative portrayal in television and the movies, but it seems that a few traditionalists feel a continual need to tout the superiority of slipjoints. I don't understand it, we live in an open, wealthy, cosmopolitan society. People aren't limited in their options, and if slipjoints are truly the best then people will choose them.

Besides I'm glad to see people carry a knife, any knife, whether it's a slipjoint, modern folder, or fixed blade. It means that person understands the utility of a knife, and won't freak out if I need to use mine.

- Christian

I think the hype around more modern looking knives and their marketing has tainted the way some feel about them. Ads like this have swayed a lot of opinions, good and bad:

http://www.gpknives.com/kabarzombiekillers.html

Like you, I am glad to see someone actually carry a knife anymore, although around here a lot of folks do.

I carry both modern and traditional type knives every work day. For me, it is simply matching the tool to the job at hand to determine which knife is used. I rely on both and appreciate both for their utility as cutting tools. Not as zombie killers, though...

Robert
 
If they were as tough and durable as many make out, a lot of manufacturers would be out of business. The older blades were soft and prone to rusting. The springs would fail, the blades would get sharpened away to nothing or break, the scales would fall off. Using the examples that have been put on life support as collectors do not give a good comparison. Modern traditionals with their CV or D2 blades and precise HT will tougher and more durable than their ancestors but few of us put knives through the same paces as we would have 150 years ago.
 
I think the hype around more modern looking knives and their marketing has tainted the way some feel about them. Ads like this have swayed a lot of opinions, good and bad:

http://www.gpknives.com/kabarzombiekillers.html

Like you, I am glad to see someone actually carry a knife anymore, although around here a lot of folks do.

I carry both modern and traditional type knives every work day. For me, it is simply matching the tool to the job at hand to determine which knife is used. I rely on both and appreciate both for their utility as cutting tools. Not as zombie killers, though...

Robert

Lol. Not my thing either. But I'd rather carry those knives than some of the Cases I've seen, like the bubble gum pink or the blue smurf.

- Christian
 
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