Traditional Japanese Katana....Made with Tamahagane....How Much??

[Kohai999]

However, modern metallurgy renders that point largely moot, because modern steels are so much more refined to start with than even tamahagane. It's pretty, and a lot of work, but doesn't necessarily mean a better sword.

You have to remember that a LOT of people actively interested in Japanese swords have no knowledge of using them. I went to my second SF token kai in 2004 or so, and was handed a beautiful Nombochuko style sword from the 1800's in perfect polish....I asked the seller how it cut, he looked at me like I had asked him if his wife was good in bed. He didn't know, he didn't care...

The skilled and experienced JSA practitioner that has a serious interest and appreciation of valuable Nihonto in the US probably numbers less than 100, even now. Most good martial artists are not very wealthy, and most collectors of Nihonto are not keen on learning how to use the objects of their desire, there is a disconnect, usually attached to dollar signs.

The OP would be well served to attend the SF token kai for starters.....as would anyone from Texas and west.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Mike157]

:thumbup:

You are in Texas, it is not that far a plane ride to go to the San Francisco Token Kai....is held this year between August 7-9.

http://ncjsc.org/SF_token_kai.htm

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Thank you for this information STeven. I live within an hour and a half from SF and was not aware of the San Francisco Token Kai - I'm going this year if at all possible. Mike

 

[Mecha]

You have to remember that a LOT of people actively interested in Japanese swords have no knowledge of using them.

A lot of people who own fantastic sports cars and classics drive way below the speed limit and have no racing experience...and I blame them not a whit as they love and display the incredible cars they chose to own and maintain, to keep them elevated for one more generation.

Dang I would like to go to the Token Kai. Kohai, I blabbed with Bell at the last two OKCA shows, his katanas were insane, I tell ya.

 

[Cobalt]

There are a number of swordsmiths in North America working in the traditions of Japan.

STeven Garsson

So they do the entire process including folding the steel while forging? Pretty cool. It is not easy to find out who does that. Do yo happen to know who the other ones are?

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Very true, STeven. I guess I meant that more on a practical level than is currently a thing. And I have to admit being one of those people who would drool over a pattern-welded sword, even though it doesn't necessarily add anything to the practical utility of it.

 

[Kohai999]

So they do the entire process including folding the steel while forging? Pretty cool. It is not easy to find out who does that. Do yo happen to know who the other ones are?

Francis Boyd is the other student that learned from the Japanese fellow who taught Michael Bell, Nakajima Muneyoshi. Michael goes by "Kuni Mitsu" and Francis goes by "Masa Mitsu".

Anthony Dicristofano works with tamehagane, not sure how he makes it, but all of his methods are as close to authentic Japanese as possible.

Tim Zowada makes his own tamehagane, but does not make swords.

Those are a few....start there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kohai999]

Very true, STeven. I guess I meant that more on a practical level than is currently a thing. And I have to admit being one of those people who would drool over a pattern-welded sword, even though it doesn't necessarily add anything to the practical utility of it.

It is possible that the microserrations inherent to modern pattern welded steel may allow the blade to cut more aggressively than many monosteels.

Kevin Cashen and I have discussed this frequently....nothing definitive has been stated(my point is that damascus is not JUST pretty).

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cobalt]

Francis Boyd is the other student that learned from the Japanese fellow who taught Michael Bell, Nakajima Muneyoshi. Michael goes by "Kuni Mitsu" and Francis goes by "Masa Mitsu".

Anthony Dicristofano works with tamehagane, not sure how he makes it, but all of his methods are as close to authentic Japanese as possible.

Tim Zowada makes his own tamehagane, but does not make swords.

Those are a few....start there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Great info, thanks.

 

[NihontoEd]

OP, Nice to see your interest in Japanese swords or Nihonto. You never did state whether you were more interested in collecting or martial arts practice ?. It does make a difference in the recommendations you will receive.

Mostly good info above, which about covers it. I would only add a few comments based on my views as a collector and practitioner respectively. Collectors, like the ones you would see in SF do frown on and discourage the use of genuine antique Japanese swords for martial arts practice. That is my own view as well. Why you might ask, several reasons. First and foremost collectors are of the preservation mindset. They see themselves as custodians of these works of art, preserving them for future generations. Secondly, there is no reason to use an antique sword for practice, especially cutting and risking irreparable damage, with so many modern alternatives available. Next is the cost of restoration. Most antique swords will have been polished and placed in shirasaya. Polishing a Japanese sword is an art in itself which requires a ten year apprenticeship in order to become a licensed Japanese sword polisher. There are only two in the US who have completed this apprenticeship. I included that so you will better understand the cost of having an antique Japanese sword polished. These cost start around $80 per inch and go upwards depending on the quality of the sword and reputation of the polisher. Turn around times can be years. These fees factor into the overall costs and one cut of the tatami mat can leave surface scratches on the blade. This will diminish the beauty of the blade and ruin a very expensive polish. So yes, if you go to the SF Token Kai and ask how their swords cut, you will likely be treated like a bastard stepchild at a family reunion.

Now I know it has to be expensive, but, if I wanted to buy an AUTHENTIC Japanese Katana made in the ways of olden times and handed down through generations of sword makers, what do you think something like that would cost? Does anyone here own such a blade?

Here is a link which will give you a general idea of cost. Swords on this page date from late 1300's to 1900's.
http://yakiba.com/Newlisting.htm
For slightly higher end perspective:
http://yakiba.com/swords25k+.htm

Do you think these very traditional makers frown on Americans buying and owning their swords? Just curious on that one.

Not at all.

Lets go for a modern one. What would something like that cost?

Swords made in Japan by traditional swordsmiths can be quite expensive, as Rich stated above. Occasionally, you can find a deal on one but they still are not cheap. In fact, you might do better buying an older sword.

If you decide to purchase an antique sword, contact me and I will give you some pointers on what to look for and what to avoid.

 

[Lycosa]

I very much admire the old style Japanese sword but no more than I admire a modern sword made with a fine steel and given a proper heat treatment.
rolf

 

[NihontoEd]

I agree. While I primarily collect the antiques, I can certainly appreciate a well made modern piece also. Of course that goes for most any hand made craft that exhibits fine workmanship.

 

[Nalapombu]

Thank you all for the help. I have enjoyed looking thru and reading the info on the links. I guess I responded to the thread in one of the links instead of here, where I posted the original question. Sorry about that.

I would just want to collect, I am not a martial arts kinda guy.

That sword polishing blows my mind. Are you serious, that it takes 10 years to apprentice to get to be a real Japanese sword polisher? That is just incredible. It doesn't surprise me though, knowing how the people in Japan revere heritage and detail. I'd like to watch that and see what it's like and why it takes so much work to get to be authorized and why it takes years to polish a sword.

One other thing I read or heard somewhere was that these swords are not sharpened once it has been done the first time. Is that true?

Also, one thing that fascinates me about these swords, the old ones, is that they come with a history. One of his swords was pitted against a sword from his pupil. Each one suspended the blade in a stream and the his pupils sword cut everything that came in contact with it, even the air. Then Masumone put his sword into the stream and it cut nothing. His Pupil laughed at him for creating a sword that wouldn't cut anything and then a priest that was watching the contest came over the told them that both were exceptional swords but the first sword was an evil sword that cut anything and it might as well be cutting a butterfly as an enemies head and the Masumone was a good sword as it didn't cut anything that didn't need to be cut.
That kinda stuff is just cool to read. I think a lot of people like that kind of history that goes with these old swords. Imagine getting to tell that story to guests that come to your house.

Anyway, thanks for the info and help.

Nalajr

 

[NihontoEd]

Are you serious, that it takes 10 years to apprentice to get to be a real Japanese sword polisher? That is just incredible. It doesn't surprise me though, knowing how the people in Japan revere heritage and detail.

Yes, though there are people out there who claim to be traditional polishers, some are self taught, some did not complete the training. One must be careful, when choosing a polisher.

I'd like to watch that and see what it's like and why it takes so much work to get to be authorized and why it takes years to polish a sword.

I assume you mean "years to learn to polish a sword". It is not so much the physical polishing that takes so long to master. A great polisher must also be an expert on Japanese swords. He must be able to look at a sword and be competent in judging it's age and school, knowing the methods in which it was forged in order to formulate the best possible plan for polishing any particular sword, while maintaing it's integrity and removing the least possible amount of material. That takes a long time !!

One other thing I read or heard somewhere was that these swords are not sharpened once it has been done the first time. Is that true?

Not exactly. The edge geometry is not the same as a western style blade, ie; no secondary bevel forming the cutting edge. So when it is polished it is sharpened as well. Any time it is re-polished it is sharpened. As well, if say chips or something need to be removed, the sword would be polished, not merely sharpened. This is to maintian the geometry of the entire blade.

Masamune was a good sword as it didn't cut anything that didn't need to be cut. That kinda stuff is just cool to read.

If you like to read those stories of Japanese swords and the folklore/Legend which surrounds them, check out the following book. It contains all the most famous swords and the stories which go with them.

Legends and Stories around the Japanese Sword 2. By Markus Sesko
http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/legends-and-stories-around-the-japanese-sword-2/paperback/product-20443723.html

 

[Havoc550]

I have spoken to Kiku Matsuda about possibly acquiring a traditionally made katana. Well, it was really one of his friends who represents his products in the US since Kiku does not speak English. Anyway, from what I remember of the conversation, there is a smith that can do it, but the price is way up there. The blade alone, with a rough polish, I believe was $15k and worked its way up to $25 for a fine polish. If you want it complete in koshirae, it made its way up past $35k. I could be a little off, but I do know a completed sword was definitely in the $35k+ region.

It was Vegas, my brother and I got to have dinner with a legend and his two business partners and no one else, how awesome was that?

 

[Kohai999]

I have spoken to Kiku Matsuda about possibly acquiring a traditionally made katana. Well, it was really one of his friends who represents his products in the US since Kiku does not speak English. Anyway, from what I remember of the conversation, there is a smith that they can do it, but the price is way up there. The blade alone, with a rough polish, I believe was $15k and worked its way up to $25 for a fine polish. If you want it complete in koshirae, it made its way up past $35k. I could be a little off, but I do know a completed sword was definitely in the $35k+ region.

It was Vegas, my brother and I got to have dinner with a legend and his two business partners and no one else, how awesome was that?

You can get a fully polished and mounted Yoshindo Yoshihara blade in the US for $35k.

It is relatively easy to get a fully polished and mounted legitimate modern katana from Japan made from tamehagane for around $15k, Southern Comfort would be able to give specific prices more easily than I would.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Zemapeli]

Interesting :thumbup:

 

[NihontoEd]

It is easy to spend big money on Japanese swords, both antique and modern. The sky is the limit depending on how deep your pockets are, so spending 35K is easily done. So many factors contribute to cost that it is impossible to give exact prices on anything except what is currently for sale. Things like the sword smiths status and reputation. For example, Yoshindo Yoshihara, and I won't go into whether he is the best Japanese sword smith living as that will always be subject for debate. However, he has been awarded the title of "Living National Treasure" of Japan. Therefore, his works are going to cost more than an unknown smith's would.

Not much different than it is here. Price a knife by some basically unknown knife maker vs. the cost of a knife by someone like Joe Keeslar MS. BIIIG difference.

Where you spend the biggest bucks is if you decide to custom order direct (broker) from a sword smith in Japan. And again, costs are determined by smith, blade length, style, polish, koshirae vs. shirasaya. You can spend big money on having just a koshirae built in Japan.

Does that mean one can not get a new sword for less than 25K+, not at all. As stated above, it is possible to get a modern Japanese katana for substantially less than 35K. Though not sure about Yoshihara's stuff since receiving the National treasure status. The last two I saw in San Francisco were wakizashi in shirasaya priced at 35K. His kogatana sell for $2500 plain, and $3500 with horimono.

Many times it is just a matter of having the patience for the right blade to come along. Occasionally, swords are ordered and the buyer backs out. Or, swords are bought and later the owner experiences financial hardship and sells for a mere fraction of what he paid, or the owner dies and the family sells just to be rid of it.

Some of the best deals on modern made swords, are those which are not brand new custom orders.
Here are several current example:
1. Katana by Musashi Kuniie (Yoshindo's brother), custom order made in 1987 = $14,000
2. Katana by Tsutomu, made 1990 in koshirae = $9000
3. Katana by Misuoki, made in 1982 = $5500
4. Katana by Yoshihisa, made in 1989 = $5800

So good deals on modern Japanese swords can be found for way under the 35K mark, but in general Japanese swords are not cheap.

 

[NihontoEd]

I thought I would share this, since we were discussing prices and deals. Here is one of those deals I was talking about previously.

A friend is selling a beautiful, long Katana made in 1973 by Masataka. The nagasa or cutting edge is 75.8cm or 29.84". It is in polish, shirasaya and papered by the NTHK. See photo.

Price: $5000

It just doesn't get much better than that. You can spend that and more for a Japanese style blade, made outside Japan.

View attachment 557896

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

If I had the scratch, that might be a thing I'd do. Can't get the attachment to work though.

 

[NihontoEd]

CF, Perhaps the file was too large, though it was only 82K. I resized it and it seems to work now, just so small you can barely see it.