Traditional knife making VS new technology pt 3

KenOnion

KenOnion

Joined
Apr 21, 1999
Messages
739
I have been reading the thread about traditional knifemaking and loved the information contained in it however we could have made due with a little less testosterone . I hated to see it locked

I wish you all would have opened up with your opinions on my old thread about knife makers and laser cut parts like you did on the traditional bit but better late than never .


Please be candid without bieng offensive I will be doing both . Pre manufactured part knives ( laser cuts , water cut etc ...) and hand made like I alwayse have .

My reasoning is so I can offer a quality product to the public at a reasonable price and hopefully supply some of the demand .


And secondly I will continue making knives buy hand ( Ok I will be using a band saw and a Burr king ) for the sake of diversity and because it is my prefered method. These will be sold as such .

Who says you can't do both ?

What are your feelings ?

Why not utilize new technologies ?

Will the knife made by modern methods be inferior ? why?

Or are you buying knives for nostalgic purposes and therefore buying a perticular piece because of the craftsman and process behind the knife ?

I also collect knives and antique knives and agree thet there isn't anything quite like a finely handcrafted piece that has been painstakenly hand crafted by a true artisan.

Why do you buy sell or make knives ? how does it complete you as a person?

Share with us why you are so passionate about your perticular area of interest in knives .

Aloha!!! Ken Onion
 
I don't see anything wrong with precut parts as long you have designed them and you put them together yourself or at least it is done under your supervision in your shop. As you said, pre-cut knives should be cheaper. If were to ever order one of your customs, it would probably be a pre-cut piece because I have a family to feed. I'm sure such a knife would still be noticeably superior to a factory built piece.
 
If I understand right...lazer cut parts come in as smaller pieces that are closer to the actual size of the finished product. Am I right? Then they are cut again and hand finished? If so, it absolutely doesn't bother me. It would be an honor to carry one of Mr. Onion's knives with me everyday...

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322
 
It’s all a matter of perspective…

Some insist on a forged blade, can’t stand the thought of stock removal. Some can’t tolerate the idea of more than one person touching their knife besides the maker before it is complete. Some don’t want any machinery not mentioned in the Bible used in the construction process. Some just want the best possible knife made with the most advanced methods at the knife makers disposal. Some have a strict price range to work within, for some the sky is the limit.

Since we all seem to want such different things, why all the fuss about the different ways that they are achieved?

I like the near endless variety of different knives and construction techniques available, even if I tend to focus on a certain, admittedly, narrow field in my collecting at this time. I buy what is best for me and me alone. I recommend what works for me, and question what doesn’t.

Style, materials, construction all play a factor, as does a certain indescribable feeling I get when handling the right knife. One that becomes an extension of my mind and will as well as my physical being.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA

[This message has been edited by stjames (edited 02-08-2000).]
 
This being the third thread on the subject, I've had time to do somethinking. First off, I'm not a knifemaker of anykind (although I tried to make on once).

If I designed a knife, using a CAD program, and sent the design out, to have all my parts lasered and CNCed, at what point would I be just a designer and assembler, as opposed to a "knifemaker?"
The way technology is today, I can see the industry running into this problem. Potentially, I could just be creative and good with graphic/mechanical design. By sending all my parts out to be made, all I'd have to is sit down with a few hand tools and some other finishing supplies, and I'd have a bunch of knives.

Some care only about the end product. Some care about the process. I guess it would just depend on who you intend to sell to.

Just food for thought,
Mitch
 
Well, here gos. After thinking about this a bit, I have come to the conclusion that laser cut parts would not bother me. There is one condition to that though, the maker should be able to demonstrate that he can duplicate it in his shop as well. What I mean is, that say a maker has liners, and blade blanks and so on laser cut or whatever. Then a customer comes and says, I want you to do it all yourself, and I will pay extra. If the maker is unable to meet the customers request due to lack of skill, then I think thats wrong. If the maker says, no problem, I just try to save time, but if you want to pay, I will do it, then thats cool. I guess that, if im going to pay hundreds of dollars for a custom knife, then I want to know the maker has the skill, and just gets laser cut stuff to save time, rather than one who does it because he is not capable. Hmm, does that all make sense?? Anyways, I dont have a clue how to make knives, so maybe I am way off base, but thats my opinion.

Richard
 
A hand-written letter, done with a good pen on good paper, has its place. So do desktop publishing and e-mail.

To adapt a line from Rudyard Kipling:

There are nine and sixty ways
of constructing vorpal blades,
and every single one of them is right!

If somebody can Do It All, from starting smelting his or her own iron ore, to fine engraving and sheath making, and do it without power tools, and end up with a good knife, it is a remarkable and praiseworthy achievment, and worth a premium price to the right buyer.

If somebody can use state of the art modern technology and/or the assistance of other specialist artisans to create a good knife, improving on economy or performance or both in so doing, that is also a good thing, so be rewarded in the market place, perhaps by a different buyer, or the same buyer on a different day.

If somebody says he's doing it the Old Fashioned Way, and or Doing it All, and that isn't true, the buyer has cause to grumble.

And if somebody can manufacture a powerful and precise CNC cutting-drilling-grinding setup, sized and priced to go into somebody's garage, I'll look forward with glee to seeing the results at the next big knife show!


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
As long as the knife in question fulfills my expectations (overall quality, tolerances, design, price, etc) I do not care if it was made by some trained monkey, robot or famous knife maker.

If the new technology helps the maker produce more knives (keeping the same quality) for even better price - that is even better.

David


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DIVERTI NESCIO

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My Photopoint pictures
 
For me, performance both in the use and in the dollar are the deal.

If it costs me less to get a knife that has some automation in it, great.... Just so long as nothing is lost.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
There are buyers for every niche out there as UW Mitch states. What becomes the issue, then, is how big is the particular niche? Has the demand for handmade knives really shrunk?

With the modern technologies available today, a very capable knife can be produced at a relatively low price. But which market has this taken from, the custom knife lovers or the people who already tend to buy production knives?

This month's issue of Blade magazine has an article by Ed Fowler, who states that most of the blades in the frontier days of America were not from domestic custom makers. A majority of them were cheaply made production knives and imports. Most of them were poor by the standards of their own day. But they were affordable, and did what they needed to do, so they were prolific.

My personal speculation is that the demand for hand made custom knives, while subject to the ebb and flow of fashion and economy, probably hasn't changed much in recent years. What has changed is the ability to create knives of high quality and workmanship for only slightly more than cheaper, lesser knives that used to be the only choice in the price range.

I started with one of those $7 taiwanese folders that a friend unloaded on me. When I borrowed his benchmade, I found out what a real blade could do, and coughed up the money for one myself. This is a road from which there is no return! I have a Fallkniven on order, and my sites are now set firmly on a Dozier knive. When I gaduate from college and get a real job, I'm hoping to aquire a Randall knife that I fell in love with.

Originally, all I cared about was what kind of steel the knife had, what the RC hardness was, and whether or not the shape was agreeable both functionally and visually.

Now, thanks to my experience with finely designed blades that I was able to afford, I have aquired a taste for more than just functionality. The modern process of producing knives gave me a leg-up into the custom world, so to speak. I yearn for more than just a knife that works. I drool over the endless array of gorgeous custom knives that grace the pages of knive magazines and make their way into the gun shows. I want a knife that will fit in my hand like I was born with it.


** Sorry about the length of this post!***


I'll end my rambling here by summing up. There will always be a market for hand made custom knives, and it will always be small, just as it has always been. Why quibble over who is more pure in their production techniques? Each market niche should be filled.

Thanks for bearing with me as I went out on my limb!
 
Most of my recent knife purchases have been handmade/customs. I not sure I really care how the knifemaker makes it if I like their designs and the quality of their endproduct. The thing I like about going to a maker is that I can have some input or choice in some modifications, or the materials used to to make the knife a little more individual rather than something coming out of a mini "production" line. It could be a different handle material, a type of steel, engraving, whatever. This sets the knife apart from that made by a production company.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
New technologies don't bother me at all if they help quality (hate cheap stuff). Great if you can have a work piece that won't cost you a fortune to be replaced when lost, stolen, etc. Sometimes you'll look for something that's unique. In such a case price matters less and you'll avoid laser cut parts
smile.gif
.

My $0.0000000001

Kris.
 
If all the parts are pre cut and the maker simply assembles then I do not think it should be called a custom or a hand made knife. This is not a bad thing. There are many very desirable knives out there that are not totally handmade.

If hitech tools are used in the makers shop I believe it is still handmade because the makers hand is controlling it.

The customer should know about the knife, Handmade, small assembly line or a combination of both.

If I buy a Ken Onion Knife blank and I finish it, should I tell people I made the knife or that Ken did?


[This message has been edited by Bo (edited 02-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bo (edited 02-08-2000).]
 
I think there may be some misconception about what laser cutting does. Knifemakers do not take a laser-cut blade, put a handle on it and call it a knife. All the laser cutting does is to outline the blade shape. That shape has to be provided to the laser cutter by the maker. The maker then has to finish and smooth the profile, surface the steel, grind and temper the blade, finish the blade, then the bolster or guard and handle get mounted. All the laser cutting does is save some tedium on a bandsaw. This is at least true for the types of knives I make (folders may be different - I don't make them so I don't know).

Laser cutting eliminates a lot of scrap, since the people who do it can work with large plates of steel and lay it out for better utilization. Laser cutting also makes it possible for someone to order a John Doe Super-Go-To-Hell-Garbage-Can-Sticker and know it will look like all the other John Doe Super-Go-To-Hell-Garbage-Can-Stickers. Once a design is drawn or prototyped it doesn't take any particular skill to make another part just like that part; it just takes a lot of boredom. Most knifemakers don't like boredom.

What most knifemakers do like however is to be able to offer knives that people want to buy. In many cases that means knives that are reasonably priced. To achieve that you have to take labor hours out of your production. That doesn't mean you take out the creativity, craftsmanship or integrity; it means eliminating things that a machine can do faster - not better, just faster.

At shows, there aren't any cheap knives on my table, and there are a lot of folks who can't afford what's there. Personally, that saddens me, not because I lost a sale, but because of the look in that person's eye when they see a knife they like, look at the price tag, and put it down. They're embarrassed and I feel like crap for having my prices where I have to keep them to feed my family.

For those buyers who are hung up on the whole "I want it all made by hand" thing, ask the maker to make you one entirely by hand. He'll charge you more, and I promise that will make you happier than it will make him, because the additional time he's charging you for is boredom.

I don't use laser cutting, but I often wish I did.

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Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Very well said Jerry. When was the last time you saw a production company express sympathy towards a person who could not afford his wares. NOT! It is this very attitude that I am looking for when I contact a custom maker. To sense that I am valued to them and show them they are valued to me as well. I feel it is this personal commitment by both parties that makes a custom purchase so enjoyable. At this point their construction methods are secondary to me. I don't feel that this is something that you would intitially ask a potential maker, "nice to meet you Jerry, by the way you don't have any of your knives laser cut do you?". I want the most bang for my buck just like everyone else and as long as the maker is up front with me on his methods I guess it is up to me whether we proceed or not. If there is one thing I have noticed in these Forums it is that when somebody raves about that new custom knife they just got they also are applauding the relationship formed with the maker. This is what attracted me to custom knives. Not the methods used to make them. Frankly, there are many custom makers out there who have the attitude that their products are good enough to sell themselves and you become just another customer to them. I find this scenario much more discouraging than the methods used to produce their knives.
 
Laser cutting blanks? Sounds fine to me. CNC milling, sounds OK as well. I really don't care How the knife is made when the maker is producing a lot of the same kind of thing. Technology will improve the final product, or at a minimum, save time for the maker and hopefully, money for the buyer.

But I don’t often buy this kind of knife. I prefer sole authorship, forged knives. I want them to be unique. One of a kind.

I don’t necessarily expect that knife made by hand will be better than a knife made with lots of technology. By better I mean better function and utility.

I prefer a handmade knife because it is Art. That does not mean the knife has to be expensive or embellished. Some of my favorite Art pieces are fixed blades, cost less than $150, were handforged, ground (minimally), and assembled by One man. They are superbly functional. They are also extremely beautiful. Their beauty resides in their simplicity and functionality.

Defining 'handmade ' is difficult. Almost no makers use Only handtools to make a knife. Almost all use machine driven grinders and drills. It is a slippery slope. Once you start using Any power tools, it is hard to call something 'handmade'. I guess that is why I prefer forged blades. I know someone put their Mind and Soul into the making of the knife. And that means Something. If only to me.

I think stjames addressed this issue very well. I think this whole 'argument' is kind of silly. Everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I find no shortage of knives that appeal to me. This Traditional vs Modern Technology argument is nonsense. It is a matter of personal Aesthetics. Not functionality or expediancy. Every knife buyer and knife maker has to make his own judgements about what methods of production appeal to them, and why.

Thanks James Mattis fro the Kipling quote. Makes Perfect Sense to me.

Paracelsus
 
When I buy a custom knife, I'd like for the maker to have personally performed every step of the process necessary to transform a piece of steel into a knife.

The most important step in the construction process, as I see it, is the shaping/grinding of barstock into knife form. The second most important step is heat treat. Anything else, including handle construction, is a distant third, because the first two are the only steps necessary to turn a piece of steel into a knife.

I've heard the argument that cutting out blanks is not a process that requires skill, which may be true, but cutting out the blank seems like a pretty important part of the process to me, and that's more important to me than whether it requires skill.

BTW, I just cut out the blanks for my first blades a couple of weeks ago, and it didn't seem that easy to me! Maybe the reason so many makers don't think it takes skill is because they're so skillful it seems easy to them!
smile.gif


All that being said, just because that's the ideal for me doesn't mean I won't buy a knife where part of the process has been farmed out. I don't have unlimited funds, not even close, and I know that makers don't have unlimited time, so economics has to take over at some point. I have to weigh cost savings versus how big a step in the process is being farmed out.


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I think that it is fine for a knife maker to use laser cut parts or whatever else they want, as long as the customer is informed. If I want a handmade knife from, say, Ken Onion and I say I want a hand made knife, I should be told that I can have laser cut parts and save a few $ or I can pay a bit more and get more hand work done on it. I would be very unsatisfied if I went to buy a Randall and found out that it was all done in a factory with jigs and such!!! When I bought my Benchmade AFCK, I was looking for a strong folder with a good blade on it and so I didn't care whether a ray gun was used on it or not!!!
Keep the customer informed as to what they are getting and it should be fine.

And if you are one of those people who don't like laser cut pars or CNC machining, don't complain that some makers are using these things- buy someone else's knife!

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"Come What May..."
 
Gentlemen (and Ladies if present),

I think that you are missing the point.

You are catering to a market. There are customers that are looking for a tool and there are customers looking for art, and there are others that want some of both.

So ask yourself - who am I making knives for. Me or the customer... Which customer, you choose.

Custom Handmade knives are like racing cars, or custom cars. These are rarities that are desired, but typically only owned by a few "dedicated" individuals. Or maybe a better annalogy (or is that simily(SP)) is a fine work of art.

Production Knives are for the average person looking for a tool. (Kinda like buying a print of a famous painting). These can be anything from very basic to a "custom nock-off".

Remember the phrase - "racing improves the breed" - that many of the car/motorcycle makers use? It's the same thing with knives. Look at Spyderco and the "Name Customs" they sell.

Just remember why you make knives and make what appeals to you - temper that with what market you want to participate in and what that market wants. Also, how to produce a quality product that you can make money producing; otherwise you are nothing more than a starving artist.

Just my $0.02 on this whole thing.

Darren
 
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