Traditional Queen with modern High Performance Steel?

Thomas Carey

Thomas Carey

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
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Imagine you work for one of the great classic brands like Queen cutlery in a position that allows you to select blade steel, and handle materials.

Given that position do you opt to use a modern high performance blade material such as M390 for example? How about handle material? Do you opt to go with a modern material and if so which one?
 
I'm a fan of M390. Not so much on the modern handle material.

I've hunted for a m390 with natural material in a traditional pattern. I'm not sure M390 would work on most traditional knife patterns. Maybe the larger slippies or lock backs, but not so much on a smaller knife. I think I read that somewhere on here in my hunt.

However, I still would opt for a natural material with a properly treated 390 if one showed up.

The 73 liner lock pattern in stag w/ M390 would work for me.
 
Queen appeals to those who like Traditional style knives. Substituting for a higher end steel does not change the look of a knife. Handle materials do change the look of a knife. Your 'audience' like the looks of traditional handle material, so i strongly suggest you pair the higher end steel with the highest quality of traditional natural substance handle material.
You mention M390 steel. There have been quite a few posts here in BF recently expressing much disappointment using blades with M390.
Bark River has been using a variety of higher end steels, seemingly with excellent results. "Seemingly" because blades with these steels have not been out for very long.
kj
 
kootenay joe said:
Queen appeals to those who like Traditional style knives. Substituting for a higher end steel does not change the look of a knife. Handle materials do change the look of a knife. Your 'audience' like the looks of traditional handle material, so i strongly suggest you pair the higher end steel with the highest quality of traditional natural substance handle material.
You mention M390 steel. There have been quite a few posts here in BF recently expressing much disappointment using blades with M390.
Bark River has been using a variety of higher end steels, seemingly with excellent results. "Seemingly" because blades with these steels have not been out for very long.
kj
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I agree with this post. Though I haven't read any disappointment on m390. I'm a fan of Ken Ankirson's (can't remember how to spell his last name) and he has posted some great reviews on m390. I really do think it boils down to how it is treated. I believe the m390 survive knives are treated well...from what I've read. I probably would not buy any makers first attempt at m390
 
Personally 154 CM is a good American powdered steel and Case along with many custom makers use it on their knives. The M390 is German made and might not be as cost effective? I am not sure on that. Either way, I would choose a nice jigged bone on a traditional with modern steel.
 
I am probably the odd one here but I like S30v a lot and also M2 blade steel. For cover materials I am a huge fan of wood, which is a traditional material. I also an equally huge fan of the various micartas for cover materials and they are not nearly as traditional as other materials.
 
CTS-XHP is another steel to consider.

About is modern as I will get.




We needed some pics :)
 
kootenay joe said:
Queen appeals to those who like Traditional style knives. Substituting for a higher end steel does not change the look of a knife. Handle materials do change the look of a knife. Your 'audience' like the looks of traditional handle material, so i strongly suggest you pair the higher end steel with the highest quality of traditional natural substance handle material.
You mention M390 steel. There have been quite a few posts here in BF recently expressing much disappointment using blades with M390.
Bark River has been using a variety of higher end steels, seemingly with excellent results. "Seemingly" because blades with these steels have not been out for very long.
kj
Click to expand...

Well stated. This would echo my thoughts on your question. Most of what I buy has what I consider better steel like CPM-154, CPM-S30V, CPM-D2 etc. You'll notice my choice of Crucible Specialty Metals. That's because they are right here in my city and I've done business with them in the past. I'm sure the other steels mentioned are of equal or better performance.

That said, pairing a quality blade steel with stainless steel bolsters, liners, shield along with some nice natural cover material will pique my interest and have me grabbing for my credit card every time.
 
Truly fine Brett Dowell Trapper, wow, pretty well impossible to get a better Traditional style folder than that.
kj
 
Thomas Carey said:
Imagine you work for one of the great classic brands like Queen cutlery in a position that allows you to select blade steel, and handle materials.

Given that position do you opt to use a modern high performance blade material such as M390 for example? How about handle material? Do you opt to go with a modern material and if so which one?
Click to expand...

It's reasonably well known that I'm a steel junky. I have modern blades in a number of alloys. But, there's a problem with trying to use "super alloys" in a traditional design. Cold Steel has run into that problem, which is discussed in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1256782-Cold-Steel-U-S-A-Made-Traditional

It's manufacturing cost.
Machining modern extreme performance alloys is far more expensive than machining traditional alloys. And the heat treat schedule is much more demanding as well. (The steel itself is quite a bit more expensive, but it's the manufacturing costs that will drive the price.) The result is that a three-blade, 4 1/4" stockman in S35VN has a MSRP of $350. Even if the street price is $250, there is not going to be a huge market for such a folder. And S35VN is easier to machine than M390, so the M390 version would be more expensive yet.

So, to answer the question, "No I probably would not use a Modern PM alloy for my blade steel. But if I did, I'd put stag covers on it." The knife would already be extremely expensive, so the additional cost of using stag would not matter to anyone with enough cash on hand to buy the knife in the first place.
 
I like premium steels in a traditional knife but as has already been mentioned, the cost is often prohibitively expensive to many people. Personally, I would fork over the cash for a CTS-XHP traditional knife if the other aspects of the knife appealed to me but I understand that some folks would not.

Having said that, I think Queen's decision to use D2 steel in many of their knives was a good one. It's a great steel and doesn't drive the cost up too much. A nice compromise of cost vs performance.
 
knarfeng said:
It's reasonably well known that I'm a steel junky. I have modern blades in a number of alloys. But, there's a problem with trying to use "super alloys" in a traditional design. Cold Steel has run into that problem, which is discussed in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1256782-Cold-Steel-U-S-A-Made-Traditional

It's manufacturing cost.
Machining modern extreme performance alloys is far more expensive than machining traditional alloys. And the heat treat schedule is much more demanding as well. (The steel itself is quite a bit more expensive, but it's the manufacturing costs that will drive the price.) The result is that a three-blade, 4 1/4" stockman in S35VN has a MSRP of $350. Even if the street price is $250, there is not going to be a huge market for such a folder. And S35VN is easier to machine than M390, so the M390 version would be more expensive yet.

So, to answer the question, "No I probably would not use a Modern PM alloy for my blade steel. But if I did, I'd put stag covers on it." The knife would already be extremely expensive, so the additional cost of using stag would not matter to anyone with enough cash on hand to buy the knife in the first place.
Click to expand...

I disagree with you. How can a modern manufacturing knife company use carbon fiber, titanium and M390 and bring it to the market for $200-250 with a much larger blade but but you figure $350 for a knife in s35 stockman?
Bring out a stag handle or bone and pair with a M390 steel in a mass produced pattern in say a Lannys clip for a similar price of a modern flipper and I'd think they would sell very well.
 
hunterjrg said:
I disagree with you. How can a modern manufacturing knife company use carbon fiber, titanium and M390 and bring it to the market for $200-250 with a much larger blade but but you figure $350 for a knife in s35 stockman?
Bring out a stag handle or bone and pair with a M390 steel in a mass produced pattern in say a Lannys clip for a similar price of a modern flipper and I'd think they would sell very well.
Click to expand...

Do not compare on-line price to MSRP. Cold Steel Stockman will likely have an online price of $250.

Modern knife is way different from a traditional knife when it comes to cost break-down. Look at Eric's Jack. Stag, single blade 440C and $120. Change that to M390 and you are over $200 easy for a one blade knife. A stockman has 3 blades.

It isn't just size, it's number of parts to machine. A stockman has more pieces to machine. Each piece has to have its own setup time and program. You have to figure those in as well as just machining time. Cheaper to machine one large piece than multiple small pieces. That means more cost. I have to calculate such things for my projects at work and have worked with factory operations for decades.

Not to mention a modern one-hander is pretty fast to assemble. Lots of folks who fuss with one-handers disassemble them on a regular basis. They do so because it is reasonably easy to take them apart and reassemble them. It takes a lot more skill to do such things with a traditional pattern. More parts, and the fastening system is way different.
 
knarfeng said:
Do not compare on-line price to MSRP. Cold Steel Stockman will likely have an online price of $250.

Modern knife is way different from a traditional knife when it comes to cost break-down. Look at Eric's Jack. Stag, single blade 440C and $120. Change that to M390 and you are over $200 easy for a one blade knife. A stockman has 3 blades.

It isn't just size, it's number of parts to machine. A stockman has more pieces to machine. Each piece has to have its own setup time and program. You have to figure those in as well as just machining time. Cheaper to machine one large piece than multiple small pieces. That means more cost. I have to calculate such things for my projects at work and have worked with factory operations for decades.

Not to mention a modern one-hander is pretty fast to assemble. Lots of folks who fuss with one-handers disassemble them on a regular basis. They do so because it is reasonably easy to take them apart and reassemble them. It takes a lot more skill to do such things with a traditional pattern. More parts, and the fastening system is way different.
Click to expand...

That's a 100 percent increase to use a premium steel like M390 which is what said in my original post.
A blade such as my ZT 562 might have as much stock as a medium sized stockman and whether you machine and or grind a blade from 440c or M390 should not be significant. Setup is setup whether the blade is 440c or M390. The labor should not change. Your talking labor with the number of parts not steel. So how do account for this?
 
Lots of a great points to consider. I just wonder if the interest would be there to even support a modest effort to produce a special run of say 300.
 
Here it is in short.

Build it and they will come


Where have I heard that?


Build it and they will come
 
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